THE MCJ

Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible. - Søren Kierkegaard

NOW THE BAD NEWS

If ECUSA consecrates another homosexual bishop or New Westminster continues to allow same-sex marriage, there will be heck to pay:

In terms of the wider Communion, and our wider relationships with a number of key ecumenical partners, the consecration has had very prejudicial consequences. In our view, those involved did not pay due regard, in the way they might and, in our view, should have done, to the wider implications of the decisions they were making and the actions they were taking. We believe that there is an important lesson here, which has implications for the process of appointment and election throughout the whole Communion.

In our view, all those involved in the processes of episcopal appointment, at whichever level, should in future in the light of all that has happened pay proper regard to the acceptability of the candidate to other provinces in our Communion; the issue should be addressed by those locally concerned at the earliest stages, by those provincially involved in the confirmation of any election, and not least by those who, acting on those decisions, consecrate the individual into the order of bishop. The question of acceptability could be posed in a number of ways. Is there any reason to expect that the appointment or election of a particular candidate might prejudice our relations with other provinces? Would the ministry of this individual be recognised and received if he or she were to visit another province? Would the individual be 'translatable'?

Let me get this straight.  ECUSA knew full well that the Robinson consecration would rip the Anglican Communion apart.  Frank Griswold was told that by the other primates and even put his name to a statement to that effect.  ECUSA went ahead anyway.  ECUSA shouldn't do that anymore or...my gracious lord of Canterbury may have to appoint another commission.  In the meantime, Dr. Williams better not invite Robbie to any Anglican gatherings.  Just yet:

We accept and respect the position taken up by the Archbishop of Canterbury in relation to the current incumbent of the See of New Hampshire. In view of the widespread unacceptability of his ministry in other provinces of the Communion, we urge the proposed Council of Advice to keep the matter of his acceptability under close review. We also urge the Archbishop, unless and until the Council of Advice (or, if the Council should not come into being, the Primates' Meeting) indicate to the contrary, to exercise very considerable caution in inviting or admitting him to the councils of the Communion.

ECUSA should say it's sorry:

the Episcopal Church (USA) be invited to express its regret that the proper constraints of the bonds of affection were breached in the events surrounding the election and consecration of a bishop for the See of New Hampshire, and for the consequences which followed, and that such an expression of regret would represent the desire of the Episcopal Church (USA) to remain within the Communion

Yup.  ECUSA doesn't have to say it's sorry for doing something the Lambeth Commission said that no Anglican church should have done.  All ECUSA has to do is to say that it's sorry that everyone else got so worked up about it doing what the Lambeth Commission says it shouldn't have done, even though it knew the consequences.  Because that'll mean that ECUSA still wants to remain Anglican.  And those bishops who participated in Robinson's consecration ought to go to their rooms and think about what they did:

pending such expression of regret, those who took part as consecrators of Gene Robinson should be invited to consider in all conscience whether they should withdraw themselves from representative functions in the Anglican Communion. We urge this in order to create the space necessary to enable the healing of the Communion. We advise that in the formation of their consciences, those involved consider the common good of the Anglican Communion, and seek advice through their primate and the Archbishop of Canterbury. We urge all members of the Communion to accord appropriate respect to such conscientious decisions

Gee.  Wonder how that will turn out?  And ECUSA shouldn't do any more of what it never should have done in the first place:

the Episcopal Church (USA) be invited to effect a moratorium on the election and consent to the consecration of any candidate to the episcopate who is living in a same gender union until some new consensus in the Anglican Communion emerges.

Astonishingly, the Commission recommends that Anglicans need to yammer some more:

Finally, we recommend that the Instruments of Unity, through the Joint Standing Committee, find practical ways in which the 'listening' process commended by the Lambeth Conference in 1998 may be taken forward, so that greater common understanding might be obtained on the underlying issue of same gender relationships.

And it'd be really nifty if the Episcopal Church could provide the Anglican world with a reason why Gene Robinson should get a pointy hat that has a smidge more substance than, "Well, it just felt right, ya know?"

We particularly request a contribution from the Episcopal Church (USA) which explains, from within the sources of authority that we as Anglicans have received in scripture, the apostolic tradition and reasoned reflection, how a person living in a same gender union may be considered eligible to lead the flock of Christ. As we see it, such a reasoned response, following up the work of the House of Bishops of the Episcopal Church (USA), and taken with recent work undertaken by the Church of England and other provinces of the Communion, will have an important contribution to make to the ongoing discussion.

If it's not too much trouble, ECUSA needs to hold off on any more controversial actions or...not much of anything will happen:

While we recognise that the Episcopal Church (USA) has by action of Convention made provision for the development of public Rites of Blessing of same sex unions, the decision to authorise rests with diocesan bishops. Because of the serious repercussions in the Communion, we call for a moratorium on all such public Rites, and recommend that bishops who have authorised such rites in the United States and Canada be invited to express regret that the proper constraints of the bonds of affection were breached by such authorisation. Pending such expression of regret, we recommend that such bishops be invited to consider in all conscience whether they should withdraw themselves from representative functions in the Anglican Communion. We recommend that provinces take responsibility for endeavouring to ensure commitment on the part of their bishops to the common life of the Communion on this matter.

Oh, and did we mention all the yammering we need to do?

We remind all in the Communion that Lambeth Resolution 1.10 calls for an ongoing process of listening and discernment, and that Christians of good will need to be prepared to engage honestly and frankly with each other on issues relating to human sexuality. It is vital that the Communion establish processes and structures to facilitate ongoing discussion. One of the deepest realities that the Communion faces is continuing difference on the presenting issue of ministry by and to persons who openly engage in sexually active homosexual relationships.

Even though the two positions are irreconcilable:

Whilst this report criticises those who have propagated change without sufficient regard to the common life of the Communion, it has to be recognised that debate on this issue cannot be closed whilst sincerely but radically different positions continue to be held across the Communion. The later sections of Lambeth Resolution 1.10 cannot be ignored any more than the first section, as the primates have noted.

Since this is homosexuals we're talking about, we've got to include this bit:

Moreover, any demonising of homosexual persons, or their ill treatment, is totally against Christian charity and basic principles of pastoral care. We urge provinces to be pro-active in support of the call of Lambeth Resolution 64 (1988) for them to “reassess, in the light of study and because of our concern for human rights, its care for and attitude toward persons of homosexual orientation”.

The Commission realizes that there are lots of conservative Anglicans out there who refuse to accept the ECUSA and New Westminster apostasies:

The Commission has been made aware of the hurt and alienation felt by individual Anglicans, parishes and dioceses as a result of decisions made and actions taken by autonomous provinces within which there is profound disagreement. In some cases, there is a long history of suspicion and division over a range of issues, and the concern over homosexuality has merely provided the focus for reaction on the part of Anglican Christians whose motivation is to be faithful to Christian truth and values as they have understood them. But in all cases, this is a situation which cries out for healing and reconciliation.

With someone who professes an entirely different religion than you do, apparently.  And let's not have any more unauthorized bishopping, okay?

In some instances, this breach of trust has been felt so keenly that a parish or diocese has found itself unwilling to accept the ministry of a bishop associated with such contrary action, and has invited bishops from elsewhere in the province or beyond to provide pastoral and sacramental oversight. In some cases, there are primates and bishops who have acceded to these requests with or without reference to the proper authorities of the diocese concerned. We want to make quite clear that we fully understand the principled concerns that have led to those actions even though we believe that they should have been handled differently.

Because the ECUSA's convoluted, fradulent and totally temporary delegated episcopal pastoral oversight plan is just fine by us:

During this period it would be axiomatic that the incumbent bishop would delegate some of his or her functions, rights and responsibilities to the incoming bishop. In this regard, we commend the proposals for delegated episcopal pastoral oversight set out by the House of Bishops of the Episcopal Church (USA) in 2004. We believe that these proposals are entirely reasonable, if they are approached and implemented reasonably by everyone concerned.

Chortle

We particularly commend the appeal structures set out in the House of Bishops policy statement, and consider that these provide a very significant degree of security. We see no reason why such delegated pastoral and sacramental oversight should not be provided by retired bishops from within the province in question, and recommend that a province making provision in this manner should maintain a list of bishops who would be suitable and acceptable to undertake such a ministry. In principle, we see no difficulty in bishops from other provinces of the Communion becoming involved with the life of particular parishes under the terms of these arrangements in appropriate cases.

So those bishops guilty of the grievous sin of unauthorized bishopping need:

to express regret for the consequences of their actions
to affirm their desire to remain in the Communion, and
to effect a moratorium on any further interventions.

American conservative bishops better get on board too:

We further call upon those diocesan bishops of the Episcopal Church (USA) who have refused to countenance the proposals set out by their House of Bishops to reconsider their own stance on this matter. If they refuse to do so, in our view, they will be making a profoundly dismissive statement about their adherence to the polity of their own church.

Gee, ya think?  But after all, we are Anglicans.  We don't want winners and losers here:

We call upon all parties to the current dispute to seek ways of reconciliation, and to heal our divisions. We have already indicated (paragraphs 134 and 144) some ways in which the Episcopal Church (USA) and the Diocese of New Westminster could begin to speak with the Communion in a way which would foster reconciliation. We have appealed to those intervening in provinces and dioceses similarly to act with renewed respect. We would expect all provinces to respond with generosity and charity to any such actions. It may well be that there need to be formal discussions about the path to reconciliation, and a symbolic Act of Reconciliation, which would mark a new beginning for the Communion, and a common commitment to proclaim the Gospel of Christ to a broken and needy world.

Four in one paragraph.  Not bad.  Oh and please hold off on homosexual bishops and same-sex marriages, ECUSA and New Westminster.  If you don't, we might have to make a hard decision and nobody, least of all us, wants that:

There remains a very real danger that we will not choose to walk together. Should the call to halt and find ways of continuing in our present communion not be heeded, then we shall have to begin to learn to walk apart. We would much rather not speculate on actions that might need to be taken if, after acceptance by the primates, our recommendations are not implemented. However, we note that there are, in any human dispute, courses that may be followed: processes of mediation and arbitration; non-invitation to relevant representative bodies and meetings; invitation, but to observer status only; and, as an absolute last resort, withdrawal from membership. We earnestly hope that none of these will prove necessary. Our aim throughout has been to work not for division but for healing and restoration. The real challenge of the gospel is whether we live deeply enough in the love of Christ, and care sufficiently for our joint work to bring that love to the world, that we will “make every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph. 4.3). As the primates stated in 2000, “to turn from one another would be to turn away from the Cross”, and indeed from serving the world which God loves and for which Jesus Christ died.

To sum up: both ECUSA and New Westminster need to say they're sorry for taking actions that the rest of the Anglican world told them would tear the Anglican world apart and that they took anyway.  They don't have to apologize for the actions themselves, merely for the fact that their actions "hurt" the rest of the Anglican world.  For all practical purposes, ECUSA and New Westminster get to tell the Anglican world that they're really, really sorry the rest of the Anglican world are homophobic bigots. 

The Commission wants American conservatives to stop being so assertive and to cooperate with people that they think are apostates.  And the Commission would really, really, really like it if both ECUSA and New Westminster would stop consecrating homosexual bishops and/or permitting same-sex marriages. 

If they don't, something bad might happen down the road somewhere.  The Commission doesn't know what that something might be but thinks it could be really unpleasant and bad and stuff.  In the meantime, the Commission hopes like all get out that the two irreconcilable, mutually-exclusive positions current in the Anglican world can somehow find common ground. 

I can honestly say that my contempt for the Anglican Communion has never been(and probably can't get any) higher.  Much more to come.

Posted on 10/18/2004 5:54:09 PM , 31 comments

Submitted by Bill (not IB) at 10/18/2004 6:30:17 PM

Very close by, I can hear the obesity-challenged female singing......

This just about wraps it up for the conservatives/orthodox. Gene stays, ECUSA can do whatever it wants and there will be a terrible hue and cry but no action, and the African bishops had better keep their hands off any Anglicans in the US.

If anyone doubts that Satan is at work in the world, I offer the commission report as Exhibit 'A' to prove otherwise. Some very good and holy men tried to compromise with unholiness - and there's only one place that can lead to, apostasy.

As a Continuing Anglican, I'd like to suggest the Continuum to those looking for a place to go. It is only one option, and I don't say it's better or worse than others, but the one thing I can guarantee is that doctrine is never sacrificed to secularity. But no matter what course people may take, my prayers and hoopes are with them - and, unlike Frankie the Great, I do feel your pain.
Submitted by JW in NC at 10/18/2004 6:30:35 PM

Christopher:
All I can say is, "Preach it brother!" All the pre-release crapola assuring us that this report "has teeth" and is "not a fudge" - was quite obviously, well...fudge. Consequently, as of 0700 this morning, I have officially joined the Anglican Diaspora. The trek through the wilderness is going to be long and arduous. God help us all.
Kyrie -
JW <(((><
Submitted by Mark at 10/18/2004 6:32:11 PM

Here are my Top Six Shockers from the report:

1. No mention at all of the ordination of gays to the priesthood.
2. No suggestion at all that V. Gene Robinson ought to resign.
3. Unqualified acceptance of DEPO.
4. No use of the word "repent" in the suggestions for what ECUSA and New Westminster should do.
5. Conservative boundary crossers rebuked in terms at least as severe as those used for liberals.
6. No suggestion of barring any bishops from Communion functions against their will.
Submitted by Brother Quotidian at 10/18/2004 6:46:21 PM

When VGR was consecrated, I told my family that we would wait for a year to see if ECUSA could/would pull back from their folly. It didn't take a year -- only seven months -- for me to become convinced that there was no hope. We bailed for the Continuum by founding a continuing parish on the feast day of our name saint on May 2.

Many of my Episcopal friends, and a goodly number more I read on the net,were urging the publication of the Eames Commission report before deciding what to do. I am soooooooo glad I didn't do that! How foolish I would have felt!!

As it is, my feelings of depression at this report have prompted me to ask myself why, especially since before the report I would have bet that it would turn out pretty much as it has. As near as one can know one's own heart (not much chance of ever getting that right, I know), here's why I'm feeling low ...

1. One can always hope for the best, and that goes for the Eames Commission. Especially with people known to be solid and dependable conservatives on it (Gomez and Malango come to mind). To the degree this hope was genuine, to that same degree I now feel disappointed.

2. So many orthodox still within ECUSA were candidly pinning their hopes on the Eames Commission, not to mention the Network. This side of the Widsor Report, I feel embarrassed on their behalf. And, those among them who are trying to put the best face on the report make me feel even more embarrassed.

3. Finally (and, I think this is the strongest disquiet I feel), the Windsor Report makes it all the more difficult for any Episcopal, any Anglican, even all those within the Continuum, to have any credibility with those outside Angilcanism -- sheesh, epsecially those outside the church! -- concerning the Anglican expression of the Christian faith. "We're not like them!" is hardly a winsome apologetic, you see.

What is needed is for something that has some sort of claim to being Anglican to start acting like those who believe the gospel is true, who believe that the Church must maintain disciplline within its own ranks, who can speak straightforwardly, without weasle words, and with the clarity of someone like ... oh, why not John the Baptist? Or St. Stephen? Or, St. Paul, as he spoke to some errant congregation in Corinth?

I have noted here recently that the CAPA bishops have spoken very unlike Anglicans for the past year. If they, however, should show themselves unable to act in compliance with their speech, then they will be the strongest evidence yet that there is something intrinsically ill and hopelessly terminal about Anglican Christianity.

Would this mean that Anglican, Prayerbook Christianity is dead? Probably so. Definately so, if by those labels you mean the home-grown variety. I am convinced that if there is anything which can bring a renaissance of Anglican faith into the world, it will come from outside Anglicanism, not from within it.
Submitted by Shae at 10/18/2004 6:55:55 PM

As a relative newcomer to Anglicanism, I am very, very disheartened by all this. Though my congregation as a whole is very conservative, I do not know what will happen next. I am committed to staying at least one year to see what, if anything, will happen. After that, I don't know what I will do.
Submitted by DeeBee at 10/18/2004 7:39:37 PM

God bless and support you, Shae. I have to stick around for the time being as well, but the light over the exit door looks more inviting by the day.

Submitted by bwk at 10/18/2004 7:55:30 PM

Christopher wrote: I can honestly say that my contempt for the Anglican Communion has never been(and probably can't get any) higher.

ditto

I share Brother Quotidian's sentiment, he has expressed the situation very well; Loss of hope though rationaly I expected nothing either, embarrassment, loss of credibility. My parish also left the mainstream and is currently under African oversight. But why remain in Anglicanism at all anymore? This is indeed a crossroads, I think for all Anglicans.
Submitted by growing God's way at 10/18/2004 8:02:11 PM

As one of a group of about 50 growing a new Anglican Church (continuing, not recognized), this report gives us all something to consider. Is Anglicanism dead? Are we truly worshiping our worship "style" rather than honoring and glorifying God? Those of us growing this church have given our very best to the glory of God and will continue to do so. I believe God has us exactly where He wants us right now...it remains to be seen what those in charge of the care and continuance of the "Anglican" Church will profess as important and worthy of the glory of God...a bitter pill for those of us who have left ECUSA, but certainly a call for confession, repentance, dependence, and obedience to God...may we all heed the call with joy! Please take heart...in the understanding that God is doing the "same, old, comforting" thing - and we are witnesses! Wipe away your tears, get on your knees, open your Bibles, and let God use you!
Submitted by Mark at 10/18/2004 8:25:24 PM

But why remain in Anglicanism at all anymore? This is indeed a crossroads, I think for all Anglicans.

Ditto. I too am in a parish under African oversight. I saw it as a way to remain Anglican while hoping for a real renewal of Anglicanism in North America. But I no longer see much meaning in being Anglican, nor do I see any hope for a North American Anglican revival. So I'm in an evangelical parish that uses a worship service loosely based on the BCP and happens to have bishops. There's a name for churches like that - they're called "Methodis," and there are lots of them around.

Suddently a loose nominal connection to a guy I've never met who lives 10,000 miles away doesn't seem all that exciting.
Submitted by southanglican at 10/18/2004 8:26:54 PM

bwk poses a good question when asking why should any orthodox anglican should remain in the existing Anglican Communion. I hope the members of the Global South will decline the recommendations of the Windsor Report but I fear they will not. If CAPA (including Rwanda, Nigeria, and Uganda) "signs on" to the agreement, that will mean that the AMiA, the Nigerian convocation in the U.S., and all "breakaway" parishes such as in Los Angeles will eventually either be eliminated or brought back into the ECUSA by being "locked" to the ABC and the "star chamber" bureaucracy set up to discipline any rebels in the future. Christopher Johnson's analysis is "dead on" and the Anglican Communion as orthodox anglicans know it (or as they, including me, wanted it) is simply "dead"...
Submitted by Brother Quotidian at 10/18/2004 8:38:12 PM

Dear Growing God's Way,

You're a tad ahead of us, we're only 20 souls, but we have also not run up a flag in our community yet (that's going to happen in December). But we're a hearty bunch, and (this is significant, I think) most of us are NOT cradle Episcopalians. The enthusiasm, the sheer joy and gratitude, that these founding parishioners display is one of the things that prompted my last comment above -- viz., that the future of Anglicanism lies with those who come into it from the outside, and not otherwise.

That said, and assuming that there yet lies a renaissance for Anglican Christianity out there, it is kind of scary to speculate how far back along the Anglican vine the Lord will apply the pruning hook.

To switch metaphors, we are not much different from bands of spiritual guerrillas, operating behind enemy lines, so to speak. One longs for a more tangible connection to the Church Militant than the fellow sitting next to you in the pew. Among the Continuum, the bishops are few, scattered, the priests and bishops are usually non-stipendiary, so their day jobs put a limit on their parish planting and parish developing efforts. Yes, Paul made tents too, but when he was able he put that aside.

I'm taking our parish through a church history course right now. What impressed me as I showed them the doctrinal and ecclesial conflicts, confusion, and chaos of the first three centuries was how familiar it all sounded! It helps, somewhat, to know that the Church has been there and done that vis-a-vis our current difficulties.

I still think that if there was anything that came out of the Reformation that could be called a reformed catholicism, it would be found in the Anglican church. My prayers and labors are now devoted to seeing something of that blessing recovered and (Lord willing) replanted in America for the sake of my children and grandchildren.
Submitted by Maestoso at 10/18/2004 9:08:14 PM

An orthodox evangelical by upbringing, I was drawn nearly 30 years ago to the Episcopal Church by the sense of wonder, majesty, and mystery of its form of worship, and the regularity of gathering for Eucharist.

I entered the process (in an orthodox diocese) toward holy orders well before VGR's nomination. No one in an advisory position made me aware of what was about to boil over (perhaps they did not know), so I plunged into seminary, parish discernment, tests/trials, et cetera with an eye toward parish ministry.

My family has made enormous sacrifices thus far, and for what benefit, I'm more than beginning to wonder.

Seems like all bets on behalf of orthodoxy within the AC (at least in the West)are off.

The Windsor Report seems to at best display a type of benign neglect of the orthodox. At worst, in terms of its rather pointed support of DEPO and dealing with boundary crossing bishops, it is an obstreperous slap up side our heads.

Aside from immersing myself fervent prayer, how can I be sure of my next step? I now wonder where my call will take me. Is there a ministry for me in the Episcopal Church?

Trying to, whatever happens, "conduct [myself] in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ,"

M

Submitted by Alan at 10/18/2004 9:22:55 PM

southanglican fears that the global south will accept the report. Why? They publically stated they wanted repentance from ECUSA and New Westminster. They haven't got it. Why should they stay with Canterbury a moment longer? The new president of the Anglican Communion will be an African. The liberals will whine that the orthodox have stolen their worldwide communion while they are left with an ever decreasing number of churches in N America. We're all going to be tied up in property battles for the next ten years, and then we'll be able to get on with proclaiming Christ crucified in the truly Anglican intelligent reasonable way that we do so well.
Submitted by southanglican at 10/18/2004 11:09:57 PM

Alan, I hope you are correct. My vote would be for either
++Akinola or ++Kolini as the "ABAC" (ArchBishop of the Anglican Communion or ArchBishop of this Ain't Canterbury), and I plan to vote with my heart, my feet, and my wallet in the U.S. if CAPA will reject the Report and continue even more vigorously to establish missions here...
Submitted by Tim at 10/18/2004 11:14:18 PM

So whose doing all this "inviting" to the revisionists to say they're sorry for hurting everybody's feelings? And how in the world did HOMOPHOBIA become the besetting sin? That wasn't supposed to be part of the Commission's mandate -- or so Eames kept saying.

Sounds like +Robin has been watching Ian McKellen in Cold Comfort Farm too much.
Submitted by mtk at 10/18/2004 11:40:00 PM

I've posted my comments on the report over at titusonenine . . . although they got a little long for me to want to repeat. In short, though, I don't think there is as much cause for pessimism as a lot of people seem to think. First, this is only the beginning of a process of deciding what's going to happen, and the report is not authoritative anyway. Second, the report (as I read it, anyway, although I seem to be the only one other than my priest and bishop that I know of who thinks so), the report comes down quite strongly in favor of the orthodox position on issues, threatening disciplinary action if the libs don't stand down (and resign, while they're at it). Granted, this is a little hedged by (A) it's being a more or less scholarly work--and very thorough at that; and (B) being chaired by and half composed of libs, which (also on a hopeful note as to how it will be read by the Primates) hardly reflects the composition of the communion.
Submitted by J. Scott at 10/19/2004 12:09:05 AM

Is there a ministry for me in the Episcopal Church?

Only if you're willing to undergo castration (assuming you're male) and a spine removal.
Submitted by SouthCoast at 10/19/2004 12:28:48 AM

"this is only the beginning of a process of deciding what's going to happen"

With all respect,mtk, I beg to differ. This is *no* the beginning of a process. The beginning lies over thirty years back, when ECUSA and, by extension, the Anglican Communion, tacitly let Pike's heresies slide. The events of last year were only an egregious eruption of what had festered for decades. So, this is no beginning. This is an end.
Submitted by JM at 10/19/2004 12:46:19 AM

I wouldn't lose all hope in the entire Anglican communion, as there are righteous, God-fearing men leading many provinces, and the end result is not yet clear.

While this may be the start of a protracted process, orthodox Episcopalians truly don't have much time. I am not speaking of our older brothers and sisters. I am speaking of those who have children and hope to instruct their children in the Word of God. You can't put that off until your children are forty years old. What will the Episcopalians teach your children about marriage? About God's plan for man and woman? Will they teach your children a coherent way of reading the Bible? Even if you are fortunate to live in an orthodox diocese or parish, at some point your children will be exposed to the official position of the Episcopal church and realize what they have been taught is not what the leadership of the church believes.

I left the Episcopal church some years ago. I halt to imagine what Bible instruction my children might now be receiving if I had not left.
Submitted by friendly RC at 10/19/2004 4:48:29 AM

Don't leave the Anglican Church. Stay and fight. Rowan and Frankie et al. are just trying to wear you out, gain time and bury you in paper and commissions.
Submitted by meep at 10/19/2004 4:59:49 AM

I wish I could give the same advice as friendly RC, but let's face it -- this report comes off sounding like a UN Resolution -- only so much window dressing. It's not a matter of just paper and commissions - it's a matter that people can vote whatever result they wish.

You can hope in time that your numbers will overwhelm the liberal "we-do-what-we-feel-like" crew, but really, how likely is that? Where are these orthodox going to come from? Disaffected Roman Catholics (who would likely be joining the ECUSA because of its stances very different from the Church)?

Part of the problem is that gay marriage will become widespread outside of the church... and I don't really see the Piskies as counter-culturalists in Canada or the U.S. Many will figure that if it's legal and widespread, they should support it, too. Plenty have already made the rationalizations, and once these become legalized, the "homophobes" will have only the Bible on their side. And it seems that ignoring the Bible is one thing this group does really, really well.
Submitted by J. Scott at 10/19/2004 6:43:54 AM

friendly RC - Do you have kids? How can you bring them up with a solid faith in the Anglican Kommunion?

It's hard enough to bring kids up as Christians in the present cultural climate without the doctrinal and moral confusion and self-contradiction that characterizes the Anglican Communion!

Any Piskie who has kids should get out of the Archdruid's cult now!
Submitted by Bob SWFLA at 10/19/2004 7:10:01 AM

"Oh, and by the by, The Commission is pressed to acknowledge that we have been quite vexed for some time now that many of you in the United States hold your forks in the wrong hand at the dinner table and we urge you to think how that action on your part could possibly, just maybe make others uncomfortable and if you decide after long consideration that it is just slightly possible that your unilateral action in this regard is discomforting to others at your table we encourage you in the strongest possible terms to say 'Sorry'."

Wait? Hold on? Only the beginning of a process? We continue our shame in letting this sort of surrender happen. We are here because we let each earlier step happen--waited to see the real outcome of heresy, extreme and radical attacks on what we know is right--and yes, revisions of the BCP and the ordination and consecration of women in the manner it all happened--just like this is happening.

We once again rose up and hooked our star to the issue of homosexual bishops (why this particular outrage and no other over the last 30 years?) and now see what it brings us to. Another beginning? Another long careful process?
More Wednesday evening discussions and "interactions" with people who have no intent of being Christians, let alone Anglicans.

We have seen the teeth of the Anglican Communion Worldwide and they are across the room in a dirty glass.

If you stay--if you "wait to see"--just admit that you are too comfortable where you are to do anything real. That's ok--if that is what you want. Just don't pretend, especially to yourself, that you are "doing something."
Submitted by Reese in Texas at 10/19/2004 8:16:40 AM


The report is irrelevant; it used many words to say little and it changes nothing. The grand old church of our forefathers (and, mothers) has died of the cancer of liberalism. Time to move on. Time spent on new writings of condemnation might release some anger, but accomplishes nothing else. Rather, cutting off the funds is what really makes a statement, second only to, just worshiping someplace else.

Look at it this way, if all the conservatives stopped going and giving, many of the local ECUSA churches will soon go broke. When they do, the buildings could be picked up for much cheaper than the lawsuits trying to take them now.
Submitted by Mary Jane at 10/19/2004 8:58:15 AM

The essence of this report is that unity trumps truth. Commissions, dialogue, papers, conventions - nothing will change the direction the ECUSA is going. Think of every uproar in the past - prayerbook revisions, women's ordination, etc. The strategy of the parties who wish to impose the change is (1) do it and then (2) wait and wear everyone else out.
I was an Episcopalian when I was young (now Catholic) and I still work as a musician in an Episcopalian church. And it does sadden me to see all that fine music and beautiful architecture surrounding what becomes every day more like Unitarianism. All accompanied by pleas to "stay and work things out." The left wing that controls ECUSA isn't going anywhere - and they're certainly not going to undo any of their actions - they're just going to blather everyone to death.
Submitted by Sasha at 10/19/2004 8:50:31 PM

Gayle, what you said about homosexuality being not a sin (in order not to demonise homosexuals) couldn't be more idiotic! It's one thing to hate sin, but another to hate the sinner - but the sin MUST be hated at all costs!!!!
Submitted by William Tighe at 10/19/2004 10:55:18 PM

Sasha,

I'm sure that Gail meant that the condition of having a homosexual orientation was not sinful (or "a sin") for someone in that position -- just as the condition of being an alcoholic or a kleptomaniac is not sinful for one who does not act upon (or "act out") those proclivities. Nothing wrong there, that I can see. It is very much like my own struggles to curb my own peevish impatience and irascibility.
Submitted by Sasha at 10/20/2004 1:10:26 AM

Mr. Tighe: let it be so what you've said - if Gayle indeed is dealing with a homosexual orientation being kept in check via chastity. I honestly thought that she was in essence endorsing homosexual acts.
Submitted by Gayle at 10/21/2004 10:09:25 AM

I wanted to clarify my remarks, what I meant was that the revisionists are saying that "to call homosexuality sin is to demonize the person". I very much believe that homosexual acts are quite sinful. As an fyi, I have been married for many decades and have 3 grown children.
Submitted by Eastern Orthodox Observer at 10/21/2004 12:11:57 PM

As a former Protestant and ECUSA refugee, my meager prayers are with you all in your current struggle. I'm afraid that the Anglican ship is sinking. It sounds like most of you think the same. If you truly believe so, then really it's a matter of choosing which life raft to take: 'Continuing' Anglicanism? Roman Catholicism? Eastern Orthodoxy? May you all be strengthened in your course by Christ and by the intercessions of all His saints who have gone before us.
Submitted by mtk at 10/22/2004 12:59:45 AM

I think my earlier post on here has been mis-read; what I was trying to point out is that this report doesn't decide anything. Rather, while it will probably be formative of what the primates decide, what they actually do will be based on how they choose to read it. This includes Akinola, et al. And, if you read the report, while it is somewhat watered-down (to get it past the liberals involved in putting it out, I think), it does call for apologies and even the stepping down of the bishops involved in the NH and NewWest things (etc.), and warns that if such is not forthcoming, there will either have to be some form of discipline, or else the Communion will split. A lot of people are looking at this very disappointedly, but I think that's in large part because the Commission wasn't set up to do what people were expecting of it. That is, a lot of people wer elooking for it to say "ECUSA is out", but (A) it didn't ever have any power to decide anything, and (B) it was charged with determining how to avoid a split.
Name: Url:
Confirm: