THE MCJ

Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible. - Søren Kierkegaard

ARISE, LET US GO HENCE

The American Anglican Council's David Anderson thinks that the Anglican fix is in:

Crucial to the progress seen at the Dromantine Primates meeting are the chairing and membership of the Panel and its scope of work and rules of engagement. In today’s highly charged atmosphere, there is really only one chance to get it right. To this end the American Anglican Council views with some alarm the recent interview with Archbishop Carnley by the Living Church Foundation on May 17, 2005, and if the interview is accurate in the quotes attributed to Archbishop Carnley, it is most disturbing. His remarks, if accurate, cause the Panel of Reference to fail based on the words he chooses to use as to how the Panel will function, for his words conflict with earlier written statements from the Primates. For example he says the Panel will be “an independent body”. Independent of what? They are certainly not to be independent of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Primates. Provision was to be in consultation with the Archbishop of Canterbury on behalf of the Primates (October 2003) and the supervision of the Panel is of the adequacy of the pastoral provisions made by any churches for such members in line with the recommendation of the Primates Statement of October 2003.

The Living Church attributes Archbishop Carnley as saying that the entire process is "not leading to a judgment," and "offered to a national church at the request of its Primate. Participation will be voluntary." The Living Church continues the attribution of Carnley to say, "the diocesan bishop still has jurisdiction," and, "It has not been decided whether to request services through their bishop or directly to Canterbury..." If these attributions are accurate, then the proposed response is not adequate for, nor has any credibility with those for whom it is designed. The oppressed orthodox in the United States do not find it acceptable, and it will not work. This is known because leaders have phoned, written and spoken their considered belief that Archbishop Carnley’s plan as he has outlined it is unacceptable.

Archbishop Carnley says that participation by a Province is voluntary. In other words a Province will decide whether to allow the Panel to supervise whether its alternative arrangements are adequate. This is not consistent with the two Primates’ statements: The Primates in October 2003 “call on the provinces concerned to make adequate provision for episcopal oversight of dissenting minorities within their own area of pastoral care in consultation with the Archbishop of Canterbury on behalf of the Primates.” The initiative is from the Primates calling on provinces to make adequate provision. Adequate provision is required.

Then in the Windsor Report process, DEPO was suggested for the USA and that particular type of DEPO was a form of voluntary participation consistent with Archbishop Carnley’s criteria. However it was clearly rejected by the Primates in February 2005; otherwise why would they have set up the Panel of Reference if DEPO were adequate? So the notion that participation is voluntary is making its first appearance in this discussion, and this is in conflict with the clear intention of two Primates’ meetings.

It is not appropriate to require that an offending Primate agree to the process as a condition for relief to be granted to the oppressed orthodox within his Province. Participation by a Province that is voluntary is either non-participation or inadequate participation because they will have a veto over the relief, and a process that does not lead to a judgment is a waste of time for all concerned. The Panel of Reference is already being seriously questioned based on the delays and perceived lack of urgency in the appointments, and this concern is increased by the timeline given by Archbishop Carnley for the process to unfold. Life boats not launched in a timely manner need not be sent.

Archbishop Carnley says, “It has not been decided whether to request services through their Bishop or directly to Canterbury.” The Primates in October 2003 spoke of provinces making adequate provision “in consultation with the Archbishop of Canterbury on behalf of the Primates.” There is no mention of a consultation of the diocesan bishop with the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Dromantine further defines the “dissenting minorities” of October 2003 now as “groups in serious theological dispute with their diocesan bishop” whose “integrity and legitimate needs” need to be protected. To request the services of the Panel through, and by implication with the permission of, their bishop was never envisaged and indeed would be self-defeating.

Two of the provinces where the vast majority of dissenting minorities are located are currently “considering their place in the Anglican Communion” and suspended from its councils. To make a process whereby those who fully affirm the teaching of the Anglican Communion can appeal to the central instruments of the communion for protection, dependent on the voluntary participation of the very provinces who are considering their place in the communion, and through diocesan bishops who will retain jurisdiction over them while at the same time considering their place in the Communion, belies all the laws of natural justice; it doesn’t make sense; it is absurd.

It is therefore most important that these remarks of Archbishop Carnley and the proposed line he is taking for the Panel which he is slated to chair are most carefully reviewed by the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Primates in whose name the Panel is acting and to whom it is accountable. If the Panel of Reference is a serious effort by the Primates and the Archbishop of Canterbury’s office to address the needs of those who otherwise would seek succor from global Anglican Provinces, and if there is serious intent to implement this Panel so that it fills this need, major change including the choice of the chairman will be necessary for this to be acceptable and useful. If it is designed to be unacceptable or useless, the bother of assembling the Panel can be dispensed with.

As the President of the American Anglican Council, I cannot even begin to convey the pain and upset and discouragement that Archbishop Carnley’s attributed remarks have caused already within the orthodox Episcopal and American Anglican community. If Archbishop Carnley has been inaccurately quoted by the Living Church, then a great deal of damage control will be required of the Living Church and Archbishop Carnley to restore faith in the Panel.

Is Anderson right about all this?  Undoubtedly.  Will this letter make any difference in the situation?  Until conservative Episcopalians demonstrate a willingness to take stronger actions than writing letters, not in the least.

Orthodox Anglicans in the West, particularly in the United States and Canada, are going to have to come to grips with something.  They are in the minority, they have no power and they are fighting against a majority whose religion Al Kimel rightly called "an effete high church unitarianism."  If orthodox Christians in ECUSA and the Anglican Church of Canada want to save the Anglican religious tradition in the west, they are going to have to be willing to walk away from western Anglicanism's "official" churches.

Here in St. Louis, the Anglican Church of the Resurrection did just that.  Getting expelled from its meeting house by ECUSA didn't stop it or even slow it down.  ECUSA doesn't concern Resurrection anymore; its Master's work does. 

Although Resurrection does not yet have a permanent meeting place of its own, it has planted churches and intends to plant even more.  It has done more for the Anglican tradition in Missouri in two years than the ECUSA Diocese of Missouri has done in fifty.  Churches like Resurrection are where conservative Anglicanism's future lies and it would be wonderful if conservative Anglicans realized it.

Posted on 5/31/2005 6:13:44 PM , 39 comments

Submitted by Prophet Micaiah at 5/31/2005 9:27:19 PM

Not only must the US and Canada orthodox going to have to walk, but the same heresy found in the Anglicon Communion is going to have to be purged or else the orthodox there will have to walk. At least they have a majority but it will take a blood bath.
Submitted by Allen Lewis at 5/31/2005 10:36:13 PM

Well said, Chris!!

One of the main causes of the continuing agony is that the Archbishop of Canterbury seems to blow hot and cold. I beliew ++Rowan is trying to appease the conservatives in the Global South while trying to hold on to the $$$ that the ECUSA and the Canadian Church wield.

This would explain the lenght of time it took him to appoint the panel, when clearly the Primates were much more urgent about the need for such a panel. Willimas is stalling. While he may buy some time, he cannot make it last forever. Sooner or later, he will have to decide. Otherwise the Global South will decide for him.
Submitted by Bill (not IB) at 5/31/2005 10:37:20 PM

Y'know, Christopher, your suggestion about just up and leaving ECUSA to get on with the business of being Christians sounds an awful lot like what us folks in the Continuum did some 25 years ago, and we got soundly criticized from the liberals and orthodox alike. We said all along that there was no way to fix things from within; the system works against those who try to do the right thing, the episcopacy has been stacked with revisionists for decades, and there is no accountability for renegade clergy or overagressive bishops. There's a difference between making a valiant effort and continuing a futile pursuit; trying to steer ECUSA away from neo-Unitarianism is the latter. What I'd like to see is some validation of the fact that the individuals and parishes who declined to accept the Women's Ordination/1979 BCP decrees (which didn't even offer something as awful as DEPO to those who were being stomped into the dust) just might have been right after all........ especially in light of what has happened since "I Am Gene".
Submitted by JM at 6/1/2005 12:09:35 AM

I think the ABC's position is pretty easy to understand. He is of two minds. Instinctively, and perhaps intellectually, he would like to throw in with ECUSA. On the other hand, he does not want to go down in history as the Archbishop who lost the Anglican Communion, or the one who allowed Canterbury to be succeeded by Lagos as the center of the Anglican world.

Of course, we shold also allow for the possibility that his current position has caused him to trim his more radical ideas and has given him a greater appreciation of the historic faith of the church: and, yet, his instincts on this matter of gay clergy are not enirely suppressed.

Submitted by Edward at 6/1/2005 1:42:56 AM

Rowan Williams may not want to go down in history as the Archbishop who lost the Anglican Communion, but by taking this Laodicean position on the great current crisis, he has made sure that that will happen.
Submitted by GB at 6/1/2005 2:07:17 AM

Of course the Continuum was right 25 years ago and is still right today. The CofE notion about allowing gay clergy to contract civil unions only shows what their true drift direction is today. That is what they call "spiritual leadership"? Get serious!!!
Submitted by J. Scott at 6/1/2005 3:37:41 AM

It's sad to think this circus might actually be over by the end of summer. MCJ will be much poorer for not having the pseudo-Anglican clowns to comment on any more. Chris, can we please have another piece along the lines of your brilliant "The Hound of the Inghamvilles" before it all closes down?

And may I suggest a permanent link on the right to your exquisite rendering of "If I only had a clue?"

Submitted by Sinner at 6/1/2005 3:50:03 AM

Williams will go down in history as the ABC who lost the Communion (even though it is Carey's fault - the conservative who saw this communion but did nothing). Williams just hopes to hold everything together: but that's no longer possible Before you are two quick to condemn Carnley's panel for being optional - you must realise that because each Province (or even each Diocese) is independent, neither Carnley or the ABC can force ECUSA to do anything. In fact, even Griswold cannot force his recalcitrant bishops to do anything (even Dromantine recognised that with a nice little back-handed comment about bishops ignoring their province's lead). ECUSA is already suspended and expulsion will certainly come; and these are only levers the ABC has. The reappraisers will simply not agree where they don't need to. This is very different from the situation in the UK, where their flying bishops are mandated by an act of parliament. But even there, the alternative oversight is only for sacremental acts; the bishop retains the right to visit, and parishes remain within their original diocese for administrative purposes, including paying their levies. AEO is simply the dismemberment of ECUSA by another name. Everyone understands this is the case. This is fine: everyone understands you think there is no difference between joining the local coven and staying in ECUSA. Fine. But you can at least be honest about it. And, ultimately neither the Global South nor Anglican moderates in the communion really worry whether or not Anderson has "confidence in the panel". The question is whether Carnely & the ABC (effectively moderates) do (and the answer to that is still yes); and then whether Akinola does (and the answer is still "no"; its been a couple of years since he called the Christians to choose between God and ECUSA and has not weakened his stance one bit. If it was just up to him, ECUSA would have been thrown out years ago)
Submitted by Dan Crawford at 6/1/2005 5:33:32 AM

The Primates responsible for the Panel of Reference need to take control of it. They won't - unfortunately, both AAC and ACN made the mistake of naively assuming they were dealing with persons of integrity and occasional courage. They were hoping to get something from eccelsiastical bureaucrats who have consistently shown they speak loudly but carry no stick at all. To the lifeboats seems the appropriate response.
Submitted by Sinner at 6/1/2005 5:46:49 AM

Why do the primates need to "take control"? Again: what possible stick could the panel carry that has not already been weilded? AEO requires the legal transfer of title: there's no way ECUSA's canon law or US civil law uphold that based on the decision of some internataional panel -- unless it is a mediated settlement that both sides have voluntarily agreed to be bound by. Again given that nothing short of immediate dismembermnt of ECUSA (or unfrocking more than half of the HOB) can possibily satisy the "orthodox" demands - and there is no way anyone from outside can impose either on ECUSA - why are you all so surprised about this?
Submitted by jude+ at 6/1/2005 6:19:57 AM

"MCJ will be much poorer for not having the pseudo-Anglican clowns to comment on any more." Baby Hates Clowns Randy Stonehill Oh my girl loves surprises So I bought a pair of tickets And we went to see the greatest show on earth Where everybody comes to have a really good time Underneath the big top Oh she seemed so delighted with the lions and the tigers And the men on the flying trapeze Oh, but when the clowns come around She clinches her fists She looks as if she’s catching a disease Baby hates clowns and the tricks they do Baby hates clowns in their great big shoes Baby hates clowns with their polka dot clothes Baby hates clowns with their big red nose Now I get a little nervous every time that the circus comes to town I don’t know why baby hates clowns Well, I gingerly suggested she was over-caffeinated Or perhaps she had a simple case of nerves She said as she glared at me with eyes like knives You gotta a lot to learn, boy So, I quick dropped the subject like a flaming hot potato But it didn’t bring her any relief Oh and it’s so hard to pretend everything is just swell When she’s muttering and grinding her teeth Baby hates clowns with their stubby cigars Baby hates clowns in their little toy cars Baby hates clowns when they tumble and they flip Baby hates clowns with their painted on lips Now it’s no exaggeration and there’s not an explanation I have found I don’t know why baby hates clowns She gets so traumatized And I feel paralyzed In the midst of her psycho drama I don’t know what to do It’s such a mystery All this hostility I tell her she should lighten up But all she does is tighten up and come unglued It’s so unsettling My girl loves surprises but I never realized She was vexed with a complicated mind And I’m not sure whether it’s a colorful quirk or some flavor of dementia How I wish I could say there was a moral to the story Something cute about venting her angst Oh, but let the truth be known, I’m in the twilight zone Some guy dressed up like bozo gets the thanks Baby hates clowns, it’s truly bizarre Baby hates clowns, just the way they are Baby hates clowns, man it’s making me nuts Baby hates clowns, she hates their guts Now I get a little nervous every time that the circus I get a little nervous every time that the circus Get a little nervous every time the circus comes to town I don’t know why baby hates clowns © 1998 Stonehillian Music / ASCAP. All rights reserved. Used by permission
Submitted by Erik Nelson at 6/1/2005 7:04:03 AM

Let's not reopen old wounds about who left and why and when. They're not worth rehashing. As for "ECUSA doesn't concern Resurrection anymore; its Master's work does" I have some problems. ECUSA will continue to advocate false Christian teaching whether we leave or stay. Does leaving no longer obligate us to stand against ECUSA? Do we allow ECUSA to continue to lead people astray, or do we continue to stand against it? I think that even if we leave, we are still obligated to expressly oppose the teachings of the Episcopal Church and to challenge them with the truth. Granted, that looks a lot different from what we do working inside the Church. But to say that ECUSA no longer concerns us is to overstate things. It does concern us, but it does not monopolize us.
Submitted by Peter C. at 6/1/2005 7:23:20 AM

Yes, Erik, it still does concern those of us who have left ECUSA. Unfortunately, those who are still in ECUSA are much like the dwarves in C. S. Lewis' The Last Battle. As much as we try to show them the beauty of what is outside ECUSA, they just sit in disbelief in their rotting and increasingly empty buildings, mumbling to themselves, “The dwarves are for the dwarves,” convinced that the dung-filled barn is worth saving.

Submitted by Jim Bergin at 6/1/2005 7:31:47 AM

Even if the Anglican Show is over by the end of the summer, I think Chris will still have more than enough topics to keep us all interested.
Submitted by GB at 6/1/2005 7:36:27 AM

Definitely correct,Eric. I think that for a long time to come, ECUSA will be attracting people who do not realize what they are getting into until it is too late. At that point we need to be there to manifest the real Anglicanism.
Submitted by LaVallette at 6/1/2005 8:00:58 AM

# Mark 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Submitted by EJN at 6/1/2005 8:03:17 AM

Erik, Peter & GB - there are arguments for staying I will not disagree with you at all. However, many of us that have left ECUSA just could not sit still and listen to the rubbish and longer. Chris is correct in saying that Church of the Resurrection has been able to accomplish much more in the time we have left and will continue to do much more in the months and years to come. Many of the members still at ECUSA are still sitting on their hands and waiting - they have changed nothing and will not be able to from the inside and that is very clear. As long as there are bishops that advocated for all the "new age" teachings and this unitarianism thought and belief system - the church will never get back to center = GOD! That is the unfortunate state of things, they do not belief in our LORD or his teachings any longer, they have changed and twisted all for they own use and political agenda. Sometimes you have to move on and start afresh - it was the right and good thing to do! AMEN
Submitted by Carson at 6/1/2005 8:04:56 AM

It was not intended to work.
Submitted by GB at 6/1/2005 8:24:14 AM

And just as a matter of curiosity, why would a clergyman who actually is celibate want to publicly identify himself as "gay" by contracting a civil union with some person on the side. In the Christian religion, gays are not allowed in the clergy. Has everyone forgotten that?
Submitted by K.M. at 6/1/2005 8:25:54 AM

"In the Christian religion, gays are not allowed in the clergy." Point of information: this statement is not true.
Submitted by Erik Nelson at 6/1/2005 8:50:13 AM

It's not a matter of it working or not, but of being faithful. I have no doubt that those who left ECUSA earlier were being faithful to what they felt God was calling them to do. What it the right and good thing to do for you? I don't know--I hope so. But God's calling for you is not necessarily God's calling for everyone else. Many of us felt and continue to feel that God is calling us to remain where we are as a witness. We don't fight the fights that we can win, we fight the fights that need fighting. I don't think ill of those who left and have founded churches that are growing and thriving. I don't believe that you or anyone else has done the wrong thing, necessarily. But I am continually baffled by those who have left who are angry at those of us who have stayed. I know there is anger on both sides about this. I think it is time to let it go. Let us all try to be faithful to the call Christ has given us, and stop assuming that we have all been given the same call--because it is pretty clear that we haven't. I don't know where this idea comes from that the orthodox in ECUSA are sitting on their hands. That's simply not true--and not fair. You fault them merely for not doing what you did. They are being faithful, they are praying, they are doing what they can. Yes, sometimes you need to move on and start afresh. They will do so on God's command, not yours.
Submitted by EJN at 6/1/2005 11:12:27 AM

Erik - we all wish you well and hope indeed that you that have remained can accomplish good things. God speed. I think our breaking point was the elevation of V Gene Robinson, in Missouri we were openly lied to by our bishop. If our bishop is not standing for the truth and as God's witness and advocate then what good is he to any of us? He was not leading appropriately and many of us felt betrayed. We did stand and defend the word of God - lost the property in the court battle. Now a year later I think we are mauch happier with the path we took. I will speak for our group, we at not angry or bitter at the very few that stayed behind (only 15-20). I think many of us are disappointed at some of things that were said and for the loss of friends in the aftermath.
Submitted by EJN at 6/1/2005 11:20:42 AM

"ECUSA doesn't concern Resurrection anymore; its Master's work does" - this means that indeed we have move on. We are still concerned with what happens with our former church but it truely does not consume our daily lives. We have indeed redirected our eneries to greener pastures. And we welcome anyone that did not leave and has had a change of heart - with open arms and hearts!
Submitted by peggy at 6/1/2005 12:00:40 PM

gb, KM is right. Just because someone struggles with the temptation of homosexual urges does not and should not and never has been (at least as far as I know) a bar to the priesthood. What should be a bar to the priesthood are those homosexuals who promote their temptation as normal and healthy and who take that a step further and enter into sexual relationships with those of their own sex. Promotion of homosexuality and any form of unrepentant sexual activity outside of marraige between a man and a woman are what should never be allowed in our clergy. A man tempted with this sin is no greater a sinner than any of the rest of us as long as he views it as sin and stuggles against it with all his heart and will.
Submitted by Prophet Micaiah at 6/1/2005 12:50:49 PM

For those who leave ECUSA the real test is if they can start a thriving, viable church. If so then more and more will follow them. If not then they were wrong. At least they have a chance to have God's blessing on their endeavor. "If the cause succede, then none dare call it treason."
Submitted by Ed the Roman at 6/1/2005 3:01:14 PM

This is a sincere question, and I will not debate the answer, I just want to know:

For those remaining in ECUSA, what was it about the Catholic Church of 1530 that was so much more intolerable than the current situation?

Submitted by Peter C. at 6/1/2005 6:09:43 PM

It's not that we think that the conservatives in ECUSA are all sitting on their hands, Erik. I do wonder when the Network bishops are going to do anything except issue statements. To this point, all the theological heavy lifting has been done by the African primates behind whose skirts the Network bishops seem content to hide and whimper. Are the Network bishops ever going to take any risks themselves or are they going to continue to leave it to the individual parishes who are getting kicked out of their buildings?

Submitted by MB at 6/1/2005 6:13:52 PM

Chris: Resurrection sounds like a good church; its witness is bearing fruit. I find this encouraging as I am involved now in an Anglican church plant on the east coast. God is able to redeem!
Submitted by HEB at 6/2/2005 12:20:51 AM

Erik: I don't believe anyone at Resurrection "blames" you for staying. But because you choose to stay you must be aware that you have an important role to play in how EcUSA handles this current crisis. But please be aware that if you have children, EcUSA has made it clear that all sunday school superintendents are to follow the new curriculum - and that my friend is not a Christian curriculum. You are charged with the responsibility to speak up loudly when the Lord's Prayer is changed from the prayer given us by Our Lord. You are to speak up loudly against the "church" when it will not abide by the 39 articles, the creeds, omitting any word of repentance and redeeming power of Christ crucified. It is so easy to sit there hoping the church will recall it's roots and stand up for God, but as we all saw, it didn't and now true christians are left with an overwhelming responsibility - all of us are if we really are orthodox Anglicans - not matter where we worship.
Submitted by Sinner at 6/2/2005 1:22:47 AM

HEB wrote: <> Perhaps not. But, so few of you ECUSA-orthodox (an oxymoron, really) forget how often the Global South primates, up to and including the entirity of CAPA, and the orthodox provinces and dioceses of Asia, Australia & even NZ **do blame you for staying**. They have broken communion with you unless you are in the network. They no longer consider you christian.
Submitted by GB at 6/2/2005 7:21:10 AM

Point of more information: As a historian with two graduate degrees in theology, I will stand by my previous statement that in the Christian religion,practicing homosexuals are not ordained into the ministry. Obviously, some individual exceptions may have slipped through the cracks, but the general rule has always been that they are not ordained. That is the reason much of the Anglican Communion is now out of communion with ECUSA.
Submitted by EJN at 6/2/2005 7:35:45 AM

Sinner - the reason the Global south has broken communion is fairly simple! They refuse to stand with a community (church body) that does not uphold the teachings of our LORD. They have taken very seriously everything they learned in church and seminary! ECUSA no longer believes the bible, gosple, scripture and as HEB stated the 39 articles of faith, the creeds, omitting any words of repentance and redeeming power of Christ crucified! ECUSA overall is no longer a valid Christian body ... it no longer stands for the word and witness to our LORD! No really good christian could ever take them seriously.
Submitted by Tom at 6/2/2005 8:38:10 AM

I hate to quibble, Mr. Johnson, but let's be clear about Resurrections ability to "plant" new churches. Holy Trinity, to which you refer, existed as an REC mission for many years. I do not know the reasons but Holy Trinity chose to transfer its denominational affiliation to the AMiA. I suppose as a mission they fall under the "guidance" of Resurrection. But they are not a "plant" in the true sense of the word. I truly wish both congregations all the best and pray for their growth. But let's avoid the hyperbole, there is really no need for it.
Submitted by EJN at 6/2/2005 9:13:01 AM

Tom - sorry hate to quibble with you but ... Holy Trinity was and is a church plant! Please reference their website main page whice incorporates the following text. The Rev. Kurt J. Henle, Vicar, Holy Trinity Anglican Church, a church plant of the AMiA Anglican Church of the Resurrection & Holy Trinity Anglican Church +++ Joint Service Times: Wednesday Evening 6:00 PM Evening Prayer, HC and Healing, followed by Bible Study and Choir Rehearsal Alternate Thursdays: 6:30 PM Small Group Meeting (Check Calendar) Saturday Morning: 8:30 AM Morning Prayer Holy Trinity Anglican Church A "Church Plant" of the Anglican Church of the Resurrection (AMiA) We Worship The FATHER, Through the SON, In the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, following ancient liturgical traditions as found in the 1928 Book of Common Prayer. -Traditional, Biblical, Evangelical-
Submitted by Fr. Leo at 6/2/2005 11:09:23 AM

In this time of turbulance caused by the mainstream ECUSA, it is great to ponder on the role of the Fellowship of Concerned Churchmen, in the 1977 Congress of St. Louis and the resultant AFFIRMATION OF ST. LOUIS. Their magazine, THE CHRISTIAN CHALLENGE's mission is to promote and safeguard orthodoxy. It is good for the continuing churches do an examen of conscience and see whether we are the custodians of faith and morals. I gree with EJN's comment on the Tradition of the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, whose theology and liturgy we observe very meticulously. I am a priest of the United Episcopal Church of North America, that focusses on the origin of our traditions that is Biblically Sound,Sacramentally orthodox and Apostolically valid. I believe that all the like minded continuing churches can together lead the people of God, preserving and protecting the 'faith once given to the saints.' The differences among the continuing churches is not theological but that of churchmanship. May His Spirit lead us on toward this unity which Jesus prayed for, 'that they may all be one.' Grace and Peace Fr.Leo www.stgabrielsuec.org/episcoblog
Submitted by Fr. Leo at 6/2/2005 11:14:27 AM

In this time of turbulance caused by the mainstream ECUSA, it is great to ponder on the role of the Fellowship of Concerned Churchmen, in the 1977 Congress of St. Louis and the resultant AFFIRMATION OF ST. LOUIS. Their magazine, THE CHRISTIAN CHALLENGE's mission is to promote and safeguard orthodoxy. It is good for the continuing churches do an examen of conscience and see whether we are the custodians of faith and morals, a responsibility that we need to be conscious of. I agree with EJN's comment on the Tradition of the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, whose theology and liturgy we observe very meticulously. I am a priest of the United Episcopal Church of North America, that focusses on the origin of our traditions that is Biblically Sound,Sacramentally orthodox and Apostolically valid. I believe that all the like minded continuing churches can together lead the people of God, preserving and protecting the 'faith once given to the saints.' The differences among the continuing churches is not theological but that of churchmanship. May His Spirit lead us on toward this unity which Jesus prayed for, 'that they may all be one.' Grace and Peace Fr.Leo www.stgabrielsuec.org/episcoblog
Submitted by Tom at 6/2/2005 11:37:49 AM

So, we are quibbling (and hopefully you understand that is is well-intended). Okay the website says they are a "plant." But you did not answer the question. In my understanding a plant is spun off a larger growing parish by dividing the congregation as the "seed." I just know for a fact that HT existed as an REC mission long before Resurrection was formed. How can the "plant" be older than the "parent?"
Submitted by GB at 6/2/2005 1:35:16 PM

Amazing how angry revisionists get when the truth starts getting close to home. And these are "liberals"? Wrong choice of words. These are pagans.
Submitted by Sinner at 6/2/2005 7:54:49 PM

EBJ - I quite agree. And this is why anyone claiming to be "orthodox" within ECUSA, that is, to be a Christian yet be within ECUSA, is fooling themselves. According to the global south, anyone in ECUSA (except in the Network) is not a Christian. Plain and simple.
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