Fr. J.STILL MORE HISSY FITS
My, but the Episcopal left is cranky these days. Dave Fly, who was, for many years, the rector of Grace Episcopal Church in Kirkwood, a few miles west of here. laments how, um, narrow the Anglican Communion has suddenly gotten. And Dave's opinion carries more weight than yours does because Dave's a Guilty White SouthernerTM:
Later in high school, in the mid-1950s, when the world started coming apart down in Little Rock, Arkansas, just 100 miles or so from where I lived, and President Eisenhower was sending troops to deal with the violence surrounding the integration of Central High School, I encountered a football coach who also taught social studies – a man who became my hero. Pat Steele was a young white guy from Little Rock who had taught in the schools there and had not only witnessed the events that had happened there, but could interpret them for us kids who lived in lily-white Monett, Missouri, and who, for the most part, parroted our parents’ prejudices. Essentially what he said to all of us was, “You’re bigger than the narrowness your lives will be if you continue to mimic the attitudes of your elders. You are bigger than your prejudices. You can come to know a world in which all people are treated with respect.”
So Dave knows prejudice when he sees it.
As I ponder the Archbishop of Canterbury’s refusal to invite the Right Rev. Gene Robinson to the Lambeth Conference, I am saddened because it reflects the narrowness that has begun to characterize the Anglican Communion. Orthodoxy has been reduced to one’s views on human sexuality. A Communion that has been characterized as being big enough to accommodate all sorts of diverse views, a Communion that incarnated the qualities of comprehensiveness and inclusiveness, has become a small place dominated more by prejudice than by the love of the Gospel of Christ.
May I interject an observation here? Much has been made of the fact that the Current Unpleasantness erupted over the fact that ECUSA, in defiance of the rest of the Anglican Communion, consecrated a practicing homosexual bishop in 2003. While that is true to a certain extent, many of us have repeatedly pointed out that our qualms with the Episcopal Church began long before anyone had ever heard of Gene Robinson and that Robbie was just the icing on a very large cake.
But Robbie's useful for the left in that they can portray this controversy as driven "more by prejudice than by the love of the Gospel of Christ." The problem with that take, though, is that conservative Anglican views of homosexual activity have been known for some time or should have been. After all, this was passed five years before Robbie got his pointy hat.
Prior to 2003, people like Dave Fly were quite happy to call themselves Anglicans and had no problem with sharing a Christian tradition with men like Bob Duncan, Jack Iker, Peter Akinola and Henry Orombi. Does Fly wish to repent of his assocation with such prejudice? Why has the expression of what Africans and conservative Anglicans elsewhere have always believed only recently turned into bigotry? Of course, when you don't seriously believe much of anything, I guess you can be very easily thrown.
In my years as a priest in this Church, I’ve lived through a lot of meanness on the part of church people against one another, but the level of nastiness seems to have reached a new low. Frankly, it puzzles me. It puzzles me not because I’m surprised that people disagree with one another over the issues of sexuality. I understand and appreciate that. What does surprise me is that I’ve always experienced my Church as being “bigger than that.” I’ve known my Church could rise above its disagreements and find unity in the Christ who has called all of us to be brothers and sisters – even when we don’t like one another! We’ve said we want to have a discussion in which the issues of sexuality can be understood and appreciated. Yet, we will not invite to the table the very people who should be a part of that discussion.
Moving on, Nigel Taber-Hamilton, who last appeared here, thinks it sucks to have to share a denomination with a bunch of morons.
One of the most significant failures of modern progressive Episcopalians is the belief that the application of reason to any given conflict will ultimately prove effective in convincing our opponents of the correctness of our cause.
This is proved false again and again, of course; people are often irrational. But our own innate – sometimes arrogant – belief in the reasonableness of humanity and its susceptibility to what we perceive as rational discourse seems to have the ability to overwhelm the mountains of evidence to the contrary.
Translation: orthodox Anglicans are dumber than a bag of hammers. And they're Puritans[sinister chord].
This is clearly the case in the current struggle within the Anglican Communion. The majority in the Episcopal Church continues to maintain a tolerant attitude to those within our own province and in Africa who have adopted a stance toward our actions that has profound echoes of the scapegoating and exclusion that the first Puritans practiced.
It should be said that the perception of Episcopalian tolerance by these Puritan heirs is quite different than our own self-understanding. Part of their concern is, I think, that the very beliefs they abhor will be imposed on them, either by canonical action or the pressure of the majority.
Which they have been.
Calming fears is surely a part of toleration.
Yet those who stand against our vision are driven by a narrow imperial ideology that denies our right simply to exist and seeks to delegitimize our identity as Anglicans. The overall conservative message – certainly presented by the leadership cadre of this group – is “Think as we think, be ‘our sort of Christian,’ or we will seek to exclude you from the Anglican community of Christians.”
And[another sinister chord] they're plotting against us.
Such rhetoric is not an empty threat. We continue to see well-planned and organized attempts to bring about the replacement of the Episcopal Church as the U.S. embodiment of Anglicanism by such groups as the American Anglican Council, the Anglican Communion Network, Forward in Faith North America, and, most recently, the “Convocation of Anglicans in North America” (Archbishop of Nigeria Peter Akinola’s extra-territorial “Nigerian” mission to the U.S.A.).
And such a strategy is being pursued elsewhere in the Anglican Communion, most notably in Canada, England, and Australia.
Please don't get excited or anything but THEY'RE GOING TO DESTROY US ALL!! AAAAAUUUGGHH!!
Until now we have not prepared well to face this assault. And so we have been blinded to this narrow totalitarian vision seeping into our nation’s and our faith’s – and even our Communion’s – DNA. It is a vision that threatens to destroy our open North American society and emerging Christian identity.
Since they're all bigots and stuff.
The canaries in the Anglican coal mine are our gay brothers and lesbian sisters and their supporters, attacked with increasing vehemence by the shrill voice of conservativism. Having spent the last 30 years berating and seeking to marginalize various ethnic minorities and women
Tabes-Hammy's got me nailed. Some guys at my old joint would wear their Klan robes in church. First thing they taught me in Sunday School was how to burn a cross. And Ethnic Slur Night was one of the most popular of all of our parish activities. We'd sit there, eating hamburgers and hot dogs and making fun of ethnic groups. Good times.
conservative rhetoric condemning gays and lesbians has reached an Inquisitional pitch. If we are not alarmed by this trend, the liberating teachings of Christ will succumb to the religious fascism of our age.
So we've got to stop being so damned tolerant of orthodox Christians. Because if we don't, THEY'RE GOING TO DESTROY US ALL!! AAAAAUUUGGHH!!
If, therefore, we continue to tolerate those who are uninterested in conversation, mutual acceptance, and radical inclusion, then we place our own necks on Mme. Guillotine’s block and hand our opponents the executioner’s cord. These neo-Puritans are focusing intently on the destruction of tolerance’s foundational values. Our demise would result in the success of their narrow and puritanical agenda within the broader Church, and herald a similar victory over the open society of our North American culture.
Yup. Orthodox Anglicans will destroy "the open society of our North American culture." There aren't that many conservative Episcopalians left, Tabes-Hammy, but whatever gets you through the day.
Submitted by unreconstructed rebel
at 5/31/2007 2:16:19 PM| The canaries in the Anglican coal mine are our gay brothers and lesbian sisters ... Oh, boy! With that one, I am turning off the receiver. Go bother somebody else. [click] |
Submitted by Alan
at 5/31/2007 2:32:02 PM| The sad thing is that many church liberals I know really believe this sort of thing. It seems to relieve them of any need to actually discuss the issues. |
Submitted by unreconstructed rebel
at 5/31/2007 2:50:20 PM| Alan - It also relieves them of any need to think or inquire. I have liberal friends who lap up the misinformation they are fed from the pulpit. Largely, I think, because it's convenient to believe the stuff. Like, "Peter Akinola has ten wives." (true story, btw) Well, we certainly don't need to pay attention to him anymore, do we? |
Submitted by Dr J+
at 5/31/2007 3:32:56 PM| One of the reasons that many of the liberals are the way they are, is that they are either ignorant, or have been taught in one of our fine liberal seminaries that have theology professors who don't even believe in the Resurrection! A few months ago, they were in a knot about Akinola being in favor or imprisoning Gay in Africa. They didn't bother to find out that the reason he was promoting that was so that the Moslems would not stone them to death. Another true story. Many of the Current Bishops in the liberal camp do not have a clue of how to interpret scripture, let alone teach it. If you want that, you have to go to a conservative Bishop like Iker, or the Bishop of Quincy. So sad! |
Submitted by Tom
at 5/31/2007 3:38:45 PM| Now, I will be honest enough to acknowledge that orthodox Anglicans can get their knickers in a twist. But you have to admit, the Leftists win the Grand Prize for Name Calling and Vituperation. |
Submitted by Fuinseoig
at 5/31/2007 4:23:30 PM| Nice to see the Inquistion getting the obligatory name-check; with all this focus on the Puritans, I was beginning to feel neglected (what, no anti-Romanist rhetoric today? I'm so disappointed!) Maybe the reason that the "Puritan heirs" fear "that the very beliefs they abhor will be imposed on them, either by canonical action or the pressure of the majority" is because it's already happening? Has happened? In various instances? Just one thing I'd like cleared up, though: if the Episcopalian church was always this tolerant, broad-minded, inclusive, non-confessional organisation, then where did these Puritans come from? How did they get in? Were they lurking beneath the beds all along? |
Submitted by Fuinseoig
at 5/31/2007 4:33:27 PM| Perhaps the Piskie Left would be mollified if they knew the real reason Bishop Robinson was not invited? Check out the 23rd May cartoon for Dave Walker's explanation of how the Lambeth invitations were really given out - it wasn't Gene's way of life that was the problem, it was those wonky thrones! |
Submitted by Phil
at 5/31/2007 4:40:40 PM| Dave Fly unwittingly gives the game away: "my church." "My church." For the rest of us, we'll stick with Jesus' Church. |
Submitted by Jim the Puritan
at 5/31/2007 5:46:31 PM| The canaries in the Anglican coal mine are our gay brothers and lesbian sisters ... La Cage aux Folles? |
Submitted by Jim the Puritan
at 5/31/2007 5:49:39 PM| Just one thing I'd like cleared up, though: if the Episcopalian church was always this tolerant, broad-minded, inclusive, non-confessional organisation, then where did these Puritans come from? How did they get in? Were they lurking beneath the beds all along? We were in the closet, but now we're coming out. |
Submitted by Truth Unites... and Divides
at 5/31/2007 6:14:43 PM| I wonder if the "Religious Left" knows how much the "Religious Right" laughs at them. I know the Left mocks and disdains the Right, and visa versa, but I do experience gales of laughter at the shameless stupidity and hypocrisy of the Left. I don't mean to be uncharitable by using words like "stupidity" and "hypocrisy", but that's how I really do see it. |
Submitted by Dr J+
at 5/31/2007 6:26:42 PM| Truth Unites...they do not know. They have very little sense of humor. They cannot laugh at themselves....because they are SO SERIOUS! To me, the provide volumes of laughter and the Left is a great source of humor for me. They think the right is "really stupid" and not "in the know" of what is really going on. Doesn't bother me. I have a PhD and DD, and can hold my own with any of them. Problem is, I ask questions that none of them can answer. |
Submitted by chris
at 5/31/2007 7:35:25 PM| Quoth Dr J+: "[The "Religious Left"] have very little sense of humor. They cannot laugh at themselves....because they are SO SERIOUS!"
So it takes only one member of the Religious Left to change a lightbulb? (...and that is NOT FUNNY AT ALL.) |
Submitted by The Bovina Bloviator
at 5/31/2007 7:56:48 PM| There aren't that many conservative Episcopalians left... And when the last straw man is gone, upon whom then will they blame their woes? |
Submitted by Jim the Puritan
at 6/1/2007 1:32:34 AM| Having once had the misfortune to live in the People's Republic of Berkeley, I can testify it was the most humorless and self-absorbed place I have ever experienced. People are not happy unless they are outraged about something. |
Submitted by Jim McNeely+
at 6/1/2007 6:23:01 AM| So...If the Episcopal Church is this hell-bent on destroying the orthodox faithful AND they have the political power to do it, why remain in this sack of putrid potatoes in the first place? -Jim+ |
Submitted by LaVallette
at 6/1/2007 7:25:15 AM| "......If we are not alarmed by this trend, the liberating teachings of Christ will succumb to the religious fascism of our age." I mean don't you know that Jesus' liberating teachings included the affirmation of people in their sin. Indeed he told the sinners that he encountered to thoroughly enjoy their way of life and to go and preach the sinful lifestyle to all nations. The words "go and sin no more" never crossed his mind. Indeed such "fascist","puritanical" or "inquisitorial" impositions were Anathema to Jesus and his "Liberating" (or should that be Liberal) salvic mission for His people on Earth. Incidentally it is also specifically recorded in the Gospels that Jesus did not say "what God has joined together let no man put asunder" because he thought this would also be a real damper on people's lifestyle, and Jesus would never cramp their style. It is for this reason that the Anglican Church no longer has an objection to re-marrying the divorced in their churches. Some of the pointy heads themselves provide a good example to their congregations as a consequence and celebration of this non teaching(s) of Christ. |
Submitted by Truth Unites... and Divides
at 6/1/2007 8:08:06 AM| Dr. J+ and Jim the Puritan, the Religious Left are a rather humorless bunch. Another one of my observations is that they truly believe that the "Right" are STUPID. And for me, as a charitable person on God's Right, I think the "Left" are deceived. I know there are intelligent people on the Left, their only problem is that they've bought into a package of lies. But they really believe that people on the Right are dumb arses, not yet enlightened as they are, even if you have a Ph.D and DD like Dr. J+, It doesn't really bother me either that they think I'm/we're stupid, what galls me is that when they read the writings or hear the eloquence of those on the Religious Right, they still don't think we're on the same intellectual ground as they are. That is so intellectually dishonest of them!!! |
Submitted by David
at 6/1/2007 10:27:12 AM| The "Left" is a humorless bunch? I have to admit that I got a really good laugh out of that statement. FYI: The Christians on the "left" that you all hate and despise so greatly do not think the "right" is "stupid" (at least I do not). Ignorant maybe...stupid, no. I think evil would be more appropriate. |
Submitted by The young fogey
at 6/1/2007 11:35:54 AM| 'Later in high school, in the mid-1950s, when the world started coming apart down in Little Rock, Arkansas, just 100 miles or so from where I lived... So Dave knows prejudice when he sees it. 'As I ponder the Archbishop of Canterbury’s refusal to invite the Right Rev. Gene Robinson to the Lambeth Conference...' I imagine Guilty White Southerner™ Fr Fly doesn't realise how offensive his comparison of +New Hampshire's behaviour to race is to many/most religious American blacks. He obviously doesn't like the views of many African ones. http://aconservativesiteforpeace.info |
Submitted by The young fogey
at 6/1/2007 11:37:59 AM| Fixing the code:
'Later in high school, in the mid-1950s, when the world started coming apart down in Little Rock, Arkansas, just 100 miles or so from where I lived... So Dave knows prejudice when he sees it. 'As I ponder the Archbishop of Canterbury’s refusal to invite the Right Rev. Gene Robinson to the Lambeth Conference...' I imagine Guilty White Southerner™ Fr Fly doesn't realise how offensive his comparison of +New Hampshire's behaviour to race is to many/most religious American blacks. He obviously doesn't like the views of many African ones. http://aconservativesiteforpeace.info |
Submitted by Ed the Roman
at 6/1/2007 12:22:17 PM| David, Sorry, I'm too stupid to understand: who are you saying is evil, the left or the right? |
Submitted by David
at 6/1/2007 12:56:47 PM| You said it....I did'nt. And as far as evil goes, just step back for a moment and read some of the things written on this blog. It is far from being "Christian", that's for sure! Most of the people here are so hung up on being "orthodox" and "conservative" that they don't have any room left for being a "Christian". If you would just let Christ into your hearts, there would'nt be any more room for all the hate you now harbor deep within. |
Submitted by Dr J+
at 6/1/2007 1:07:06 PM| Whoa David, you sound like one of the responses that comes on Mark Harris' web site. If you really want to have some fun with the Ultra-Liberal, go to: http://anglicanfuture.blogspot.com/ ANY anti-Liberal comments there are immediately attacked with a vengence! Shows what a great sense of humor they have. NOT |
Submitted by Goliath
at 6/1/2007 1:10:32 PM| David, you're speculating about other people's motivations. Is that really all you can muster to support your viewpoint? Also, I find it ironic that liberals always misinterpret Mt 7:1 to mean that it is wrong to discern sin. Then they violate it by indulging in such speculations. |
Submitted by David
at 6/1/2007 1:17:47 PM| The motivation you think I am speculating of speaks quite clearly for itself. Further, I don't think I ever quoted Matthew 7:1 not did I ever say it was wrong to discern sin. There is an ocean of difference between "discerning sin" and obvious hatred. |
Submitted by unreconstructed rebel
at 6/1/2007 2:25:34 PM| David, lighten up. We're just funnin' with the Devil. You know how he hates laughter. |
Submitted by Ed the Roman
at 6/1/2007 3:16:28 PM| Gee, David, who do you think I wish a bad end to? You said it....I didn't. And why did you disable your irony detector? Now, this part is not ironic. If I don't pay attention to orthodoxy, how do I know if I am doing the word and not hearing only? |
Submitted by alfonso
at 6/1/2007 3:32:21 PM| My problem is that I hate sin too little, not that I hate it too much. |
Submitted by Bill (not IB)
at 6/1/2007 4:24:47 PM| Now, I'm not a-sayin that the revisionists and liberals are right. BUT - I am a-sayin that them what's a-sayin the situation has just recently come to a crisis, and matters have only now reached critical proportions - are full of bovine fecal matter. The warning signs were there 20 years ago, people - WHY DIDN'T YOU HEED THEM!!!! |
Submitted by Gayle
at 6/1/2007 6:36:52 PM| I think sometimes Michael Savage has got it right. Liberalism is a mental disorder, whether it's in the pulpit or in politics. |
Submitted by Truth Unites...and Divides
at 6/1/2007 7:00:50 PM| David writes this about orthodox Christians: "Ignorant maybe...stupid, no. I think evil would be more appropriate." Evil??? That's even worse than being considered Stupid! The Religious Left truly thinks that the Religious Right is EVIL??? Ya gotta be kidding me!?!! |
Submitted by Jess
at 6/1/2007 9:47:49 PM| So, tell us David, how non-judgemental the left is. Gosh, how did ECUSA ever survive without you? |
Submitted by David
at 6/2/2007 11:07:54 AM| Sorry you took offence. I'll leave this site with an observation: You all seem like a bunch of self-righteous, fundameltalist Southern Baptists who happen to like liturgical worship. Kind of like Pat Robertson under a cloud of incense. Sorry for that, but if you are going to get all smart-mouthed about it, I felt I should give you a comment to get offended about. |
Submitted by David
at 6/2/2007 11:15:34 AM| Oh, and one more thing, to Jess who does'nt know how TEC ever survived without me: The Episcopal Church survives because God is with it, not because of me or you. People like you have been trying to destroy it for years, but to no avail. Why don't you go join Akinola's "Talibanglican" Church and push your thoughts on him. Could it be that he does'nt give a flip about anybody but himself? Could it be that in his church you would'nt have a say in what goes on? Could it be that he would treat your wife as "property"? Furthermore, the left could take lessons in pushing God off his judgement throne from the right, especially since you all have been doing just that for years. |
Submitted by InNewark
at 6/2/2007 12:10:01 PM| Gosh, David, I can't tell you how my understanding of the Christian goodness of the left is improved by the holy instruction in our faults that you just gave us this morning. Maybe, since you know so much, you can explain why literaly tens of millions of Nigerians have chosen to follow ++Akinola, at the risk of their lives. When ++Akinola became Archbishop, the Nigerian church was, I believe, under 5 million; now it is well over 25 million. Those 20 million converts include a lot of former Muslims whose lives are now forfeit, so far as the majority Nigerian culture is concerned. Why would any Christian treat their wives as chattel when Jesus criticizes the Mosaic law, and St. Paul tells Christian men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church? Or did you ever get around to actually reading the New Testament? I was once part of a "moms in touch" prayer group, where all the other members were evangelicals of various stripes, and while I still count these women as my sisters in Christ, I can assure you that their approach to Scripture, worship and Christian obedience is very different from that of any Anglican conservatives I know. (Including the low church ones who would never go near incense). Calm down, get off your high horse, and learn something substantive before you go throwing invective around in public places. |
Submitted by Jess
at 6/2/2007 12:32:35 PM| "Talibanglican" - oh, that's so clever, did you think of that all by yourself? So if God is with ECUSA, why have the membership numbers (and ASAs) taken such a dive? Perhaps "All Are Welcome" but your kind has worked hard on driving out the ones who actually supported ECUSA. Great strategy, Einstein.
Despite your comments on self-righteousness having set the irony meters off the charts, your racism is refreshingly open for all to see; clearly your use of hyperbole and lies demonstrates your contempt for those uppity Nigerians. I doubt I'll be the only one here praying for you, your need is obviously great. |
Submitted by Goliath
at 6/3/2007 5:19:02 PM| Davy is an apostrophe apostate. What's up with that? |
Submitted by David
at 6/3/2007 8:24:49 PM| Just a little gas to throw on your fires, that's all. I get a kick out of seeing you guys defend the likes of Akinola. The only thing I got a bit upset about is the comment calling me a racist...me, of all people. I have no contempt for (what YOU called) "uppity Nigerians", but I do have more than a little contempt for people trying to paint anyone standing up against Akinola (Satan's liason to the Communion) by dismissing them as racist. Since when does the right wing folks care about racism and discrimination? I suppose you care now, when it suits you, when Akinola (your Savior) is wanting to come in and lead your little band into the promised land. |
Submitted by David
at 6/3/2007 9:11:03 PM| I've been doing some thinking, and I owe you folks an apology. I should not have came into your website and made snide remarks and comments. My comments caused no positive outcomes, and I regret having made them. The ironic part of it is the fact that I am actually a quite conservative person. I am a financially conservative, pro-life, high Church, mainly republican person. I just have a problem when our views (left wing and right wing) get in the way of our being the Body of Christ (the Church). I disagree with the views of the extreme sides of all the issues facing TEC these days, but I really don't need nor expect everyone to agree completely. When I walk up to the rail and kneel for the Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, the political views of the individuals next to me don't matter. I answer to God for myself only. My only problem is when our differences cause us to terrorize and attempt to rip apart the Church. I can agree to disagree with my fellow Churchmen, and move on with the Gospel call to spread the "Good News". May God's peace be with us all. |
Submitted by Jess
at 6/4/2007 2:45:18 AM| I'm not pleased with my reaction either and ask your forgiveness. I'm a cradle Episcopalian now involved in the RCIA process. I don't know if I'll make it, due to dogmatic issues, but my reaction is typical of the fruit I've borne in ECUSA (and see out of many others), and I want the fruit I see in the RC parish I attend. I still care about ECUSA, one of my siblings is still there, a clergy member. Yes, may the Peace of Christ be with all of us. |
Submitted by JM
at 6/4/2007 10:48:36 AM| David asks, "Since when does the right wing folks care about racism and discrimination?" That, itself, is a bigoted utterance, in my opinion. Perhaps it is because "right wing folks" don't go into hysterics when somebody refers to a group, whether they be black, Italian-American, or accountants, as "you people." Maybe it is because we don't bring a discrimination suit every time some minority group doesn't score as well on standardized tests. But I can assure you, I felt personally offended and uncomfortable when the bishop of my diocese referred to African Christians in the same demeaning manner as J.S. Spong. There is a point at which even "right wing folks" can be offended at racism. |
Submitted by Christopher Johnson
at 6/4/2007 11:13:40 PM| Don't worry about it, David. I run an open shop here(mainly because I don't have the time to moderate comments) and as long as they're civilized, I let people say what they think whether they agree with me or not. As a result, some people have probably written things here that they wouldn't mind taking back. I know I have. More than once. |
Yawn.
I have dear friends who are in all kinds of trouble and I love them. But, that don't make what they do right.