The PilgrimEPITAPH
If this quote is accurate, the contest to determine what will be carved on the Episcopal Church's tombstone is officially over:
The Bishop of the Episcopal diocese of Los Angeles has issued an apology to Hindus worldwide for what he called "centuries-old acts of religious discrimination by Christians, including attempts to convert them" reports India Abroad. The apology was given in a statement read to over 100 Hindu spiritual leaders at a mass from Right Reverend J John Bruno. The ceremony started with a Hindu priestess blowing a conch shell three times and included sacred chants.
This meeting was the result of a dialogue, started three years ago, between Hindu leaders and Rev. Karen MacQueen, who was deeply influenced by Hindu Vedanta philosophy and opposes cultivating conversions. "There are enough Christians in the world," she said.
Submitted by Smurf Breath
at 2/12/2008 6:37:01 PM| It would be interesting if one could convince some of those Hindu leaders to read the NT and then ask them, "When you were at the mass, did you get the impression you interacted with what is described in this book?" |
Submitted by Sasha
at 2/12/2008 6:54:58 PM| And what did Our Lord Jesus tell us (at the end of the Gospel of Matthew - 28:19-20)?!?!? "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." In other words, these people like Karen MacQueen are turning their back on Our Lord's command and thus CAN'T be considered Christians (let alone ministers/ministrices)!!! For a "Christian" diocese to apologize for conversions (especially since most in India (at least) were NOT by violence - compare that with Islâm!!!) is the ultimate in SACRILEGE... |
Submitted by Irenaeus
at 2/12/2008 6:58:11 PM| I mean, how would Indian Christians, who are often persecuted severely by Hindu nationalists, receive these words? Good grief. |
Submitted by Sue Martine
at 2/12/2008 7:03:17 PM| When I read the account of this to my Roman Catholic sister-in-law, she immediately blurted out, "But isn't it his JOB to convert them?" I guess that Bp. Bruno hasn't read Matt 28:19-20, in which Jesus COMMANDS his disciples to go into the world and make disciples of all nations. Is Jon Bruno a disciple of Jesus or not? Obviously, Karen McQueen isn't, either. They have fancy titles in front of their names, but are undeserving of them. I am outraged that these two, along with a whole bunch more TEC priests and bishops, are so ashamed of Jesus that they think that other religions are just fine, or even better. |
Submitted by dwstroudmd
at 2/12/2008 7:24:08 PM| Dhimmitude is not limited to Islam as Bruno and McQueen demonstrate. They show the same sensitivity to persecuted Christians as the ABC. This is apparently a highly contagious infection, folks. Watch out. Coming to a UNITED RELIGIONS enclave near you, soon. |
Submitted by Skookumchuk
at 2/12/2008 8:12:41 PM| I don't know why you guys still bother, I really don't. And for a laugh, check out Iowahawk. Hysterical. |
Submitted by Sodbuster
at 2/12/2008 11:18:17 PM| Saying that on top of the San Andreas Fault? |
Submitted by The Pilgrim
at 2/13/2008 3:28:18 AM| This is a knife in the back of every Christian missionary on the Indian subcontinent. |
Submitted by Gregg the obscure_
at 2/13/2008 6:52:12 AM| I guess it can be looked at as positive that she didn't say "There are too many Christians in the world", which seems to be the left's mantra. |
Submitted by Allen Lewis
at 2/13/2008 9:24:42 AM| But don't worry, folks! The Supreme Anglicans at the ACI will explain how we just have to be patient with these people and wait for the Anglican Covenant (all glory and honor be unto it!) to take effect. Then all will be well! |
Submitted by IB Bill
at 2/13/2008 9:56:01 AM| I, too, was deeply influenced by Vedanta Philosophy. To a certain extent, you can subsume a lot of Christian belief within it. That's one reason why it's extremely difficult to convert Hindus. Christ becomes an avatar of Vishnu, Christian faith becomes a yoga of devotion that leads to enlightenment, and all you have to do is focus almost entirely on mystical experiences. I'm not explaining this well, but it is the faith that many liberal Episcopalians believe. It's important to note that they are not Christians in the traditional sense -- they are essentially Hindus working with Christian symbols and mystical practices. That's why I see this "liberal" Christianity as a separate religion altogether. It's basically hippie Buddhism (or Hinduism) dressed up in Christian clothes, and reinforces certain liberal precepts, especially tolerance. Within this paradigm, Christianity is a much less sophisticated yoga (paths to God) than Eastern mysticism, but enlightened Westerners can increase that level of sophistication by removing certain benighted elements of Christianity. Do you follow? Christianity is not Christianity because it's true, but because it tapped into a universal mystical spirit. In other words, God just went with it when Christianity was invented. In my case, I investigated Christianity, Christian mysticism, Christian mysticism within a Hindu context, a form of Hindu mysticism and eventually Zen Buddhism. My conclusion was unexpected (for me): That the most orthodox Christian claims are true -- and that the rest, while containing powerful religious experiences, are coming from real spirits that are in opposition to the Spirit of Christ. I had to choose. I think if liberal Episcopalians would really delve into both Vendanta and Christianity, they would find the same thing to be true. But instead they stay on the surface of both, without really investigating either. And as a result, they're patronizing and condescending to both. Does this make sense? It can be difficult discussing this stuff since Hindu categories don't match up with Christian categories. For example, when Muslims and Christians argue, we are arguing for the most part in the same fundamental terms. But with Hindus/Buddhists and Christians, the categories not only don't overlap, Christian categories can be easily subsumed into Hindu ones. We are truly NOT speaking the same conceptual language in a dialogue with Hindus. My two cents. |
Submitted by Michael Harmon
at 2/13/2008 10:33:45 AM| Go ye, go ye, into the world, And apologize to all the nations! Go ye, go ye, into the world And I won't be with you there! |
Submitted by Laurence K. Wells
at 2/13/2008 10:44:44 AM| I do not need to comment on this clergyperson's statement that "there are enough Christians in the world," but it needs to be stressed that she is not one of them. |
Submitted by Mrs. Lawrence
at 2/13/2008 11:03:58 AM| Hmmn...the LATimes account and it is in accordance with the Indain account: Service celebrates 2 beliefs Episcopalians hold an Indian Rite Mass with Hindus and apologize for past religious discrimination. By K. Connie Kang, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer January 20, 2008 Hindu nun Pravrajika Saradeshaprana, dressed in a saffron robe, blew into a conch shell three times, calling to worship Hindu and Episcopal religious leaders who joined Saturday to celebrate an Indian Rite Mass at St. John's Cathedral near downtown. The rare joint service included chants from the Temple Bhajan Band of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and a moving rendition of "Bless the Lord, O My Soul" sung by the St. John's choir. FOR THE RECORD: Hindu-Episcopal service: An article in Sunday's California section about a joint religious service involving Hindus and Episcopalians said that all those attending the service at St. John's Cathedral in Los Angeles were invited to Holy Communion. Although attendees walked toward the Communion table, only Christians were encouraged to partake of Communion. Out of respect for Hindu beliefs, the Hindus were invited to take a flower. Also, the article described Hindus consuming bread during Communion, but some of those worshipers were Christians wearing traditional Indian dress. — "This was a once-in-a-lifetime experience in worship service," said Bob Bland, a member of St. Patrick's Episcopal Church of Thousand Oaks, who was among the 260 attendees. "There was something so holy -- so much symbolism and so many opportunities for meditation." During the service, the Rt. Rev. J. Jon Bruno, bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles, issued a statement of apology to the Hindu religious community for centuries-old acts of religious discrimination by Christians, including attempts to convert them. "I believe that the world cannot afford for us to repeat the errors of our past, in which we sought to dominate rather than to serve," Bruno said in a statement read by the Rt. Rev. Chester Talton. "In this spirit, and in order to take another step in building trust between our two great religious traditions, I offer a sincere apology to the Hindu religious community." The bishop also said he was committed to renouncing "proselytizing" of Hindus. Bruno had been scheduled to read the statement himself, but a death of a close family friend prevented him from attending the service. Swami Sarvadevananda, of Vedanta Society of Southern California, was among about a dozen Hindu leaders honored during the service. He called Bruno's stance "a great and courageous step" that binds the two communities. "By declaring that there will be no more proselytizing, the bishop has opened a new door of understanding," Sarvadevananda said. "The modern religious man must expand his understanding and love of religions and their practices." All were invited to Holy Communion, after the Episcopal celebrant elevated a tray of consecrated Indian bread, and deacons raised wine-filled chalices. In respect to Hindu tradition, a tray of flowers was also presented. Christians and Hindus lined up for communion, but since Orthodox Hindus shun alcohol, they consumed only the bread. During the service, the two faiths also blended practices during the handling of an icon of Jesus. The Rev. Karen MacQueen, an associate priest at St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Pomona, who was the celebrant, carried the icon, a large painted image, during the procession. She placed it before the altar. Then, as she and the others knelt before the icon, a second Hindu band, Adoration Chant Band, sang a hymn while the icon was anointed with sandalwood paste by the Episcopal celebrant. A flowered garland was placed on it and a lamp was lighted, a sign of Christ, the light in the darkness Both Hindu and Christian texts were read. In her homily, "A Vision for Inter-Religious Dialogue," MacQueen said in both Hinduism and Christianity devotees believe that "the Divine Presence" illuminates the whole world. MacQueen, who spent two years studying Hinduism in India, said both faiths revere "great figures who embody the divine light, who teach the divine truth." For Christians, Jesus preeminently embodies the divine light, she said. For Hindus, she said a number of figures embody the divine light and teach the divine truth. "To my knowledge this is an unprecedented event in L.A., California and the U.S.," said the Rev. Gwynne Guibord, head of the ecumenical and inter-religious affairs for the diocese, which initiated Saturday's project. "My personal, prayerful hope is that it will serve as a 'model' of good will toward building up of a 'beloved community,' " she said. |
Submitted by obituary
at 2/13/2008 11:18:36 AM| No wonder God has turned His Face away from these people. At least He is not bringing down a plague or fire and brimstone. Rather he is letting them die off. How kind He is. |
Submitted by Mrs. Lawrence
at 2/13/2008 12:54:02 PMEven more hmmns and perhaps the most important one to date. Look at how The Episcopal News reported the joint service and I think we have discovered something most important regarding The Episcopal News Service : They do not print all the news that is fit to print. Absolutely no mention of Bishop Bruno's committment to renouncing "proselytizing" of Hindus. That's a grave omission for a religious reporting outfit to make:
The Episcopal News 2008-01-25 Indian Rite Mass celebrates ties between two faiths In a colorful rite that honored the traditions of both the Christian and Hindu faiths in India, some 260 participants gathered for an Indian Rite Mass on January 19 at St. John's Pro-Cathedral. Bishop Chester Talton, who attended the service, read a statement from Bishop J. Jon Bruno that offered friendship to the Hindu people of the Indian community and apologized for past harsh treatment of the Indian people by Christians. Swami Sarvadevananda, a leader of the local Hindu community, accepted the apology with thanks for three years of Hindu-Episcopal dialogue through a program founded by the Rev. Gwynne Guibord, diocesan ecumenical/interfaith officer, who also assisted at the service. (Guibord is pictured at right with Bishop Talton, at rear, and Swami Sarvadevananda. Mass was celebrated by the Rev. Karen MacQueen, assisting priest at St. Paul's Church, Pomona, who also preached. She noted that the Christian minister Martin Luther King, Jr., and the Hindu philosopher and activist Mohandes Gandhi, two of the most influential religious figures of the 20th century, drew from each other's work to promote nonviolence as a powerful agent for change. During the service, trays of flowers were offered to God, as is traditional in India. At the Eucharist, Hindu attendees were invited forward to take a flower as a sign of friendship: Indian Christians, some of whom were also in traditional garb, took part in the Eucharist. Indian, Orthodox and tradition Western church music were offered by the choir of St. John's and two Indian bands. |
Submitted by Sasha
at 2/13/2008 1:13:46 PM| So far, obituary, God Has not indeed unleashed His plagues, but they WILL come - Revelation tells us as much!!! |
Submitted by KC
at 2/13/2008 1:39:28 PM| isn't this a logical outcome when the Great Commision is replaced by the Holy MDG's? |
Submitted by wildiris
at 2/13/2008 2:03:07 PM| Anyone with a handle like skookumchuk, has to be an old time logger from the pacific northwest. |
Submitted by Ken
at 2/13/2008 2:11:42 PM| There's a certain amount of evidence that "religious experience" is psychological in nature, rather like the experience of the numinous that C.S. Lewis discusses in Mere Christianity. Non-christians have these experiences; in fact, non-religious people have them. It's not our experiences that are god, although we try to make them so. The Triune God is god, the Risen Jesus Christ is Lord. He is the great objective Way, Truth, and Life. Yes, our inner experiences matter, but they are responses and highly variable between people and even in each one of us, as the years go by. |
Submitted by japhy
at 2/13/2008 2:17:13 PM| I can find no REAL source article from India Abroad with the quotes from Bruno and MacQueen. Something's fishy. |
Submitted by Christopher Johnson
at 2/13/2008 2:51:21 PM| That's why I said "if." I'll pull this post if MacQueen was misquoted. |
Submitted by obituary
at 2/13/2008 4:07:03 PM| Sasha, if you are waiting for a plague, how about this one? |
Submitted by Michael D
at 2/13/2008 4:44:48 PM| Katie Sherrod tells a very different story about the Episcopal/Indian service in Los Angeles. Apparent the LA Times published a correction to their original story the next day (now inaccessible for those without subscriptions). Hindus did not partake in communion, and the only apology issued was for "past harsh treatment of the Indian people by Christians." Presumably a reference to the British Raj, a regime not generally described as anything but incidentally "Christian."
Perhaps (hopefully) we have been misled. |
Submitted by Mrs. Lawrence
at 2/13/2008 5:20:14 PMFrom the (revised) LATimes account ( K. Connie Kang, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer January 20, 2008 ):
During the service, the Rt. Rev. J. Jon Bruno, bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles, issued a statement of apology to the Hindu religious community for centuries-old acts of religious discrimination by Christians, including attempts to convert them. "I believe that the world cannot afford for us to repeat the errors of our past, in which we sought to dominate rather than to serve," Bruno said in a statement read by the Rt. Rev. Chester Talton. "In this spirit, and in order to take another step in building trust between our two great religious traditions, I offer a sincere apology to the Hindu religious community." The bishop also said he was committed to renouncing "proselytizing" of Hindus. Bruno had been scheduled to read the statement himself, but a death of a close family friend prevented him from attending the service. Swami Sarvadevananda, of Vedanta Society of Southern California, was among about a dozen Hindu leaders honored during the service. He called Bruno's stance "a great and courageous step" that binds the two communities. "By declaring that there will be no more proselytizing, the bishop has opened a new door of understanding," Sarvadevananda said. "The modern religious man must expand his understanding and love of religions and their practices." |
Submitted by Sasha
at 2/13/2008 5:39:57 PM| Thank you very much, obituary (yes, it is a sobering fact that being in that lifestyle increases the risk of getting such diseases as much as tenfold or more...); however, there will be a heck of a lot more for all of us who're less than Christian on this earth... [Furthermore, often a disease will get its start within the confines of one group and then get out from that group to attack the rest of society - as AIDS has done...] |
Submitted by Duane
at 2/13/2008 6:16:38 PM| "The only way to win audiences is to tell people about the life and death of Christ. Every other approach is a waste." - Fulton J. Sheen |
Submitted by charles austin
at 2/13/2008 6:32:22 PM| Hmm..., maybe there's one too many Christians, assuming Rev. McQueen still considers herself one. |
Submitted by Skookumchuk
at 2/13/2008 10:29:42 PM| Wildiris: Old time, yes; Pacific Northwest, yes; logger, no. Ex-Piskie looking for a new home; yes. |
Submitted by Jon
at 2/14/2008 12:00:35 AM| Come on, guys. Whose right is it to judge? |
Submitted by Fr. J.
at 2/14/2008 11:59:09 AM| Interesting that these Hindu leaders still had to go to mass to hear this apology about centuries of doing things like corralling them for mass. |
Submitted by Laura R.
at 2/14/2008 7:59:14 PM| This comes a bit late in the conversation, but I much appreciate IB Bill's explanation (2/13/2008 9:56:01 AM) of the similarities between Vedanta and liberal Episcopalianism. Some startling and very valuable insights here. |
Submitted by Sasha
at 2/14/2008 11:02:33 PM| Jon, much as we're warned that as we judge we'll likewise be judged, we just CAN'T get away from judging! Our Lord did NOT tell us not to judge, period; rather, he was meaning us to not be hypocrites when we do so... |
Submitted by IB Bill
at 2/15/2008 10:17:57 AM| Thanks, Laura R. Cheers. |
Submitted by wildiris
at 2/15/2008 11:13:16 AM| For those here, not from Washington State or British Columbia, skookum is an old native american word that means strong, big, tough, mighty!. It is a word I havent heard in almost 30 years. And the only people I ever knew, that still used it, were loggers and indians. Skookumchuk, if you're not one of those, then you had to have grown up in one of those communities. |
Submitted by Skookumchuk
at 2/15/2008 5:05:33 PM| Wildiris: Yup. Though I'm not a logger, I've worked in logging communities and in the timber transportation business. I do hear people who still say "skookum", though mainly up in BC as opposed to down here in Washington State. Skookumchuk means "strong water" or "whitewater" in Coast Salish. There are also two spellings; Skookumchuk in BC or the former plus Skookumchuck down here in Washington State. Yes, it is a fine word! Makes me want to eat a stack of pancakes, put on a Filson's plaid shirt and jeans and go chop down a tree. Then go look for a decent non-ECUSA church. :-) |
Submitted by Diane
at 2/17/2008 1:21:14 PM| IB Bill, what you say makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for the fascinating post.
This topic intrigues me because I happen to know a Christian missionary in India--a Jesuit priest (Indian himself) who is bringing the Gospel to an almost totally Hindu wilderness area, which shall be nameless. He travels by bicycle from village to village, enduring hardships (like the occasional elephant stampeed--I kid you not!) in order to bring Christ to those who have never heard of Him. His life is in constant danger from anti-Christian Hindu militants. He used to sleep in road-side shelters; now he has a crude little hut at the main mission he founded. His parishioners--the villagers--take turns guarding his hut while he sleeps. Because the constant threat to his life is very real. When I think of this good priest and the many other missionaries like him, who are risking their lives for the Gospel, I feel very little sympathy with JJ Bruno and his ilk. |
Submitted by diane
at 2/17/2008 1:37:14 PM| oops, typo alert, that should be stampede. So sorry! |