PISKIE PANS PASSION
If you'd like yet another reason why the Episcopal Church can't die fast enough, Bill Cork has extensive quotes from a Salon.com interview with an Episcopal clergyman who just saw Mel Gibson's The Passion:
... Mel Gibson said the reason that he had [his cast] speaking those original languages ... , "If I was doing a film about very fierce, horrible, nasty Vikings coming to invade a town, and had them on their ship with their awful weapons, and they came pouring off the ship ready to slaughter -- to have them speak English wouldn't be menacing enough. ... I almost puked. It was so xenophobic: The good guys speak English; the bad guys speak these other languages. ...I think it was meant to cause confusion and awe in the audience, to have these horrible people speaking either a Semitic or an ancient language like this. ... [In the film, it came off like] nasty foreigners were doing this thing to our beautiful Jesus. So when Mel Gibson said in the interview that the reason for the other languages was to highlight the brutality, that kind of freaked me out. I could see how it would work on an unsophisticated audience. ...
I guess since the ECUSA doesn't have a canon about it, this guy figures Exodus 20:16 no longer applies to him and he can go ahead and draw any conclusion that pops into that empty, Episcopal head of his. You, "almost puked, it was so xenophobic," did you? You know for a fact that Mel Gibson was trying to represent, "nasty foreigners...doing this thing to our beautiful Jesus," do you? Did the possibility that Gibson was trying for a little historical realism ever enter your mind, you pretentious dolt?
In case you're wondering who an "unsophisticated audience" is, that would be anyone who still believes this rose-from-the-dead stuff. A "sophisticated audience," then, would be anyone who's been to an Episcopal divinity school and had this twaddle educated out of them.
Jesus' crucifixion was made too singular. This was an ordinary event. Jesus was one of dozens of insurrectionists that the local Roman occupiers would have crucified, but [Gibson] tried to make his suffering especially agonizing and horrible. That was the other subtext -- I thought there was an unspoken assumption that somehow, for Jesus' death to have meaning to believers, it had to be more horrible than any other kind of suffering and death. The film doesn't really say that, but that's the idea, and that's why it has an "R" rating -- for the violence. The protracted scourging.
Gibson might have made Jesus' crucifixion "too singular" because that's Who the movie is about. Just a thought. And it's interesting that this "clergyman" thinks that the crucifixion of Someone he's supposed to consider Savior and Lord was an "ordinary event...one of dozens." One more admission that the ECUSA is not a Christian church.
I thought it was sickening. At the screening they were handing out boxes of Kleenex -- they should have handed out barf bags. ... There was no reason for this [violence], spiritually or theologically. ... The violence is literally gut-wrenching. My pious mom was there and she felt a knot in her gut from the violence, but she also felt the movie was poorly made. She called it "plodding." ... She's 76. She was there for the star power. She definitely wanted to see Mel Gibson. That was the other scary thing about the event -- to have 4,500 Christian leaders in one room who were just star struck and gaga....
Interesting how this clergyman makes a point of describing his mother as "pious." Does that mean he's not? And I guess there wouldn't be any spiritual or theological reason for this "gut-wrenching" violence if this story were just a metaphor. If you don't really believe that Jesus died on the Cross for the sins of the world, then this sort of thing would probably be awfully tough to watch.
I don't see the point of magnifying the violence of his arrest, torture and death. I find it perverse and strange and really vulgar. As Ray Brown says, the Gospels are pretty straightforward. They arrive at Golgotha, and then it says, "Then they crucified him." They just say it in a little short sentence. They don't say, "They yanked one of Jesus' shoulders out of the socket and they bounced the cross around face down after he was nailed to it." ...
Dale Price already jacked this hanging curve into the seats:
This criticism, reasonably common, makes no sense after a little reflection. For someone who likes to tart up and trot out his half-remembered historical criticism, he's missing the point--ever hear of sitz im leben? When the accounts were written, there would have been no need to explain crucifixion in any detail--the readers would have known it instinctively. And shuddered.
Two thousand years later, we, who have no crucifixion frame of reference, need to be educated.
Back to me. Sophisticated Audience saved his best for last:
It's 100 percent Hollywood trash.
An Episcopal clergyman, ordained in a church that has just about completely done away with sin and has never had any criticism whatsover of any of the other truly vile, morally bankrupt movies Hollywood has ever made, thinks The Passion is "100 percent Hollywood trash." Mel, if, by some miracle, you should read this, that line has just guaranteed that I'll see The Passion multiple times in the theater and buy multiple copies of the DVD.
UPDATE: Secret Agent Man rhetorically slaps around this fraud, whose name is Mark Stanger of Grace Cathedral in San Francisco, more thoroughly than I do here. Read the whole thing. There are quotes in the interview that are far worse than the few I've listed.
Thanks to Matt J.

Submitted by susan b.
at 1/28/2004 8:14:22 PM| The Salon article identifies this clown as "The Rev. Mark Stanger, canon precentor and associate pastor of San Francisco's premier mainstream Episcopalian church, Grace Cathedral..."
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Submitted by Mithrax
at 1/28/2004 8:44:50 PM| Just a point on this.
A peer of mine who is clergy recently saw this. She said that she couldn't adequately describe what she saw save that she couldn't stop crying for a few days and she was terrified of doing a communion service again because it the movie made everything so REAL. She was genuinely perplexed and confused. At which point I said to her "That's the point". "Of what?" "Everything that we, as priests need to communicate and get others to see." Apparently, that confused her even more. I mercifully left it at that. What I can't fathom is that she, like others, never comprehended what the crucifixion really meant, not just for criminals, but for the Son of God, and thusly, for us. |

Submitted by Thomas
at 1/28/2004 8:59:29 PM| Chris, I'm there. Let's get a bunch of disaffected Lutherans and Anglicans together so we can pack one of them there AMC stadiums. We can make it a sort of protestant pilgrimage. We can even find someone with a laptop so we can whack penguins!
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Submitted by Matt J.
at 1/28/2004 9:21:41 PM| Secret Agent Man did a nice fisking of this rubbish pile http://secret-agent.blogspot.com/ |

Submitted by Peter C.
at 1/28/2004 9:59:49 PMI had the good fortune to be able to travel to Istanbul and visit the Phanar, the home of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. In the Patriarchal Church of St. George, they have part of the pillar to which Jesus was chained when He was scourged by the Roman guards. After seeing that and being able to place my hand on it, how anyone, even an Episcopalian, can call the events of Great and Holy Friday “ordinary” is beyond my understanding. |

Submitted by Joey W
at 1/28/2004 11:00:25 PM| "Jesus' crucifixion was made too singular. This was an ordinary event."
I have never heard any Christian spout such blasphemy so openly. VeeGeR, Grizzo - even Spong! - could take lessons in heresy from this guy. I can see why he needs the "barf bags" (really great writing for a Canon; he has absolutely no turn of phrase whatsoever!!!) because he's enough to make even himself sick. Kyrie Eleison!!! (By the way - I wish I knew where an Internet copy can be found; some years back a physician in our parish came across a medical description of the Passion. After reading that, everything became much more real - and I doubt that there's any way Mel Gibson could make it too gruesome. It was a horrible way to die - which makes the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross that much more important to us all.) |

Submitted by Jackson
at 1/28/2004 11:11:56 PM| FYI - In Grace Cathedral's liturgy the bread was expressly broken for the followers of Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism.
Needless to say, my wife and I didn't receive from Grace Cathedral on that day. |

Submitted by J. Scott
at 1/29/2004 2:57:51 AM| Joey - I have a paper copy of that medical description. I've used it on maundy Thursday several times. Email your postal address to Chris and ask him to forward it to me (he has my email address), and I'll post you a photocopy of it. |

Submitted by J. Scott
at 1/29/2004 2:59:03 AM| Or mail you a xerox, if you prefer.
(Must brush up on my Americanese.) :-) |

Submitted by J.Scott
at 1/29/2004 3:31:27 AM| Grac[i]e Cathedral may be staffed by heretical anti-clerics, but it does a beautiful sung Eucharist which you can listen to here:
http://www.gracecathedral.org/av/ Made me homesick, especially with those American accents. [Sigh.] |

Submitted by William Tighe
at 1/29/2004 6:58:51 AM| Are you speaking, perhaps, of the book *A Doctor at Calvalry* by Pierre Barbet, which appeared riginally in the 1950s? |

Submitted by Colleen V.
at 1/29/2004 7:11:13 AM| I wonder if Joey W. is thinking of the description by Maria Valtorta which WF Buckley extracted in his spiritual biography "Nearer My God". According to the footnote he slightly edited it from the English translation called "The Poem of the Man-God".
In any case it is an excruciating description of the physical torment Jesus endured. It devastated me; I couldn't stop crying and I am normally pretty darned self-controlled. My reaction to his excerpt and my inability to reread it makes me highly dubious that I will be able to sit through Mel Gibson's movie. |

Submitted by Fr. Greg McComas
at 1/29/2004 8:38:18 AM| I saw the movie last week (and it does not leave the resurrection in doubt). When asked about how controversial it truly is, it doesn't come across that way to me at all. My guess is that the same Jewish leaders who object to every passion play and every "Seven Last Words" Good Friday also object to Gibson's "The Passion" as cut from the same cloth. It is. I likewise guessed that the publicists are seizing upon this small element of controversy and playing it up for the sake of promo. On the other hand, I have been saying that whereas this is a gripping, important, movie for Christians, I had no feel whatsoever for how non-Christians would take it. Now I know. There is true, legitimate, controversy after all. I have just read the clarion testimony: Episcopal Mark Stranger has been scandalized; scandalized by the "Scandalon"--Christ crucified.
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Submitted by Duane
at 1/29/2004 8:44:05 AM| but [Gibson] tried to make his suffering especially agonizing and horrible.
Jesus's suffering was "especially agaonizing and horrible" as he was suffering for the sins of humanity, he was the ultimate sacrifice given by god to cleanse us of our sins. |

Submitted by Fr. Greg McComas
at 1/29/2004 10:34:30 AM| Duane, concerning the Divine suffering unto hell and back, for the sins of the world, good thing you didn't read the interview itself:
[commence anguished pouring of ashes and tearing of garments/] Mark Stranger says, "I think a 5-year old who has to get cancer surgery...suffers more than Jesus suffered. I think a kid in the Gaza strip who steps on a land mine and loses two limbs suffers more; I think a battered wife with no resources suffers more; I think people without medical care dying of AIDS in Africa suffer more than Jesus did on that day. [/desist] The sufferings of this world are heartbreaking and unspeakable, but to so belittle the Passion of Christ is a type of blasphemy. |

Submitted by MC from CA
at 1/29/2004 10:42:45 AM| While I dind't much like the article I want to say a few points in its defense here:
First, I heard Fr. Mark Stanger preach once, about ten years ago, and at least then he clearly did believe in the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus. I don't see why Mr. Johnson assumes he doesn't believe in it - just because he's a liberal Episcopalian doesn't mean he necessarily disbelieves in every tenet of the faith. Second, Fr. Stanger does have a valid point about whether it's worthwhile to dwell on the intensity of Jesus's suffering. Christians of unimpeachable orthodoxy, including Frederica Mathews-Green, have made the same point. There is a strain of Christian spirituality, perhaps most prevalent among Roman Catholics which dwells heavily on how intense Jesus's suffering was, and imagines every sin committed by anyone adding to that suffering. This is highly debatable theology that appears to be the inspiration for the movie (which I haven't seen) and no one should be branded a heretic for questioning it. When Fr. Stanger says that the crucifixion was "ordinary" he clearly means that to a casual observer at the time it would not have been much different from any other crucifixion. There is no particular reason to think he is not right. Both the scandal of the crucifixion and its atoning value derive not from how intense the suffering was, but from the fact that it was the Son of God who was enduring those things. I don't see where Fr. Stanger denied that. |

Submitted by MC from CA
at 1/29/2004 10:54:37 AM| Further question for Fr. Greg McComas who posted while I was typing my reply:
Where in the Bible or in the Church Fathers does it say that Jesus's suffering was greater than that of any other individual? The Apostles and Nicene creeds simply say "he suffered." They don't say "he suffered way, way more than any human being ever has or ever will." I always thought the point was that he *shared* in our suffering, not that he surpassed it. |

Submitted by Jared
at 1/29/2004 11:21:32 AM| MC from CA,
Actually the Bible teaches that we share in HIS suffering not that he *shared* in our suffering. Since we are sharing in His suffering rather than him sharing in our suffering it is only logical to conclude that He has suffered more than any of us individually have suffered, especially more than those of us who are still alive and haven't suffered death. Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. Romans 8:17 For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. 2 Corinthians 1:5 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, Philippians 3:10 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 1 Peter 4:13 |

Submitted by Mary in LA
at 1/29/2004 12:24:05 PM| "He was wounded for our transgressions, and chastised for our iniquities..."
"Behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto His sorrow." |

Submitted by MC from CA
at 1/29/2004 12:25:22 PM| I appreciate the quotes and the correction. But I don't buy your logic.
Try some analogies: 1. All of us are sharing in Christopher Johnson's web storage space. Therefore Christopher Johnson has more web storage space than any of us. 2. Jared lets all of his neighbors share his tools. Therefore Jared has more tools than any of his neighbors. |

Submitted by Jared
at 1/29/2004 12:54:08 PM| MC from CA,
Your analogies only fail because you have substited man for God. If you believe that Jesus is divine, and that all good things come from God, then it is logical to make such a conclusion. Or you could look at it another way, the Bible teaches that Jesus is always with us enduring what we endure and enabling us to overcome: therefore He endures our suffering, therefore since He endures your suffering + your neighbors suffering then He has endured more suffering than either of us individually. Now you could argue that since you were born after Jesus's death that that suffering is different from His suffering on the cross, but once again this arguement only holds true if you assume Jesus was a mere man, and not divine. Since Jesus was divine, and since He is not bound by the limitations of time and space then it is entirely reasonable and logical to assume that Jesus's suffering included the entirety of our suffering as well, since the Bible teaches that through baptism we are united with Him in His death. Therefore since we were united with Christ in His death, then our sufferings were united with His sufferings at His death, therefore He endured more suffering than any of us individually. The presence of divinity changes everything. |

Submitted by J. Scott
at 1/29/2004 2:28:16 PM| Joey and others interested in a medical view of the crucifixion can try "A Physician Analyzes the Crucifixion" by Dr. C. Truman Davis at:
http://www.frugalsites.net/jesus/physician.html See also: http://www.frugalsites.net/jesus/medical.html |

Submitted by MC from CA
at 1/29/2004 2:31:41 PM| Jared,
Aren't you reversing yourself now? In your first reply to me you wrote: "Actually the Bible teaches that we share in HIS suffering not that he *shared* in our suffering" ... and you backed that up so well with Bible citations that you thoroughly convinced me. Now in your second reply you write, "He endures our suffering, therefore ..." What is the Biblical source for this? In particular, where is written that through his bodily incarnate suffering as a man on the cross, he endured all of our suffering? p.s. thank you for the courtesy of your replies. I hope that Gibson's movie will stimulate a lot of reasoned discussion of the precise meaning of the passion. |

Submitted by Christopher Johnson
at 1/29/2004 3:11:28 PM| MC from CA,
If I give you a Christmas gift and you thank me profusely for it, I think I have good grounds to question your gratitude if you sell the gift I gave you at a yard sale the following spring. Stanger may, indeed, have once professed a belief in the resurrection of the Lord but this interview rather badly undercuts his assertion. |

Submitted by Jared
at 1/29/2004 4:25:35 PM| MC from CA,
I don't consider myself to be reversing because I believe that when I was baptized I gave my whole self to Christ, therefore my sufferings are no longer mine, but rather His. Kinda like turning over the deed to your house to someone else while you still live in it. Can I quote a scripture that exactly clarifies the substitutionary atonement work of Christ on the cross? No, I consider the exact method of the atonement to be something of a mystery, we can only infer from the Scriptures how to understand this process, and then must trust the rest to faith. I suspect this is left as something of a mystery because it involves the divine nature of God and we have no legitamate frame of reference to truly understand it. For example, what does a sin look like? How much does a sin weigh? What would it feel like to carry the weight of everyone's sins? How does one carry someone else's sins? I don't know, but I believe Christ carried my sins with Him when He was on the cross because the Bible tell me He did. Can I prove decisively that bearing my sins would cause more suffering than a kid who loses a couple of limbs or a wife who is battered by her husband? No, not decisively since suffering is a difficult thing to compare, especially for an outsider to compare. But I believe that for a God who is so holy that He can not tolerate sins, to carry the sins of the whole world with Him to a tortous physical death upon a cross, far exceeds the pains and sufferings of any mere human anywhere on this earth. Call me arrogant if you want, but I believe my sins cause Jesus more pain than the worst torture chamber could ever hurt me or anyone else. Perhaps Stranger's sins aren't as bas as mine, or perhaps Stranger doesn't really believe Christ carried his sins with Him to the cross, or perhaps Stranger is a fully indoctrinated Episcopal priest and no longer believes in sin. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. (1 Peter 2:24) |

Submitted by MC from CA
at 1/29/2004 5:02:28 PM| Jared,
"I don't consider myself to be reversing because I believe that when I was baptized I ... " When I said you were reversing yourself I was referring to some very specific statements. You first said emphatically that Jesus does NOT share our sufferings; then you said that he does share them. Which was correct, or did I misunderstand? "Can I quote a scripture that exactly clarifies the substitutionary atonement work of Christ on the cross? No..." Fine. Then I trust you would not call someone a heretic or a blasphemer just because his understanding of atonement differs from yours in some details. As Article VI of the Anglican 39 Articles states, 'Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith.' "For example, what does a sin look like? How much does a sin weigh? .... suffering is a difficult thing to compare, especially for an outsider to compare." Yes, I agree that sin is difficult to measure and suffering is difficult to compare. Which is why I think it is wrong to make dogmatic statements about degrees of suffering, particularly when scripture and the church have not seen fit to do so. "But I believe that for a God who is so holy that He can not tolerate sins, to carry the sins of the whole world with Him to a tortous physical death upon a cross, far exceeds the pains and sufferings of any mere human anywhere on this earth." That is probably true. But the discussion began because Fr. Stanger objected to a film portraying Jesus's suffering as extreme in the physical sense. "Call me arrogant if you want, but I believe my sins cause Jesus more pain than the worst torture chamber could ever hurt me or anyone else." I have no desire to call you arrogant. This opinion is a perfectly reasonable one. "Perhaps Stranger's sins aren't as bas as mine, or perhaps Stranger doesn't really believe Christ carried his sins with Him to the cross, or perhaps Stranger is a fully indoctrinated Episcopal priest and no longer believes in sin. " Perhaps. Or perhaps he's perfectly orthodox on the atonement. I have no idea, and I don't think you do either. What he does appear to believe his that Jesus's *physical* sufferings were not particularly extraordinary compared to those of other victims of crucifixion (which is still pretty bad, of course). "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. (1 Peter 2:24) " Amen. |

Submitted by Edward
at 1/29/2004 5:15:31 PM| Another resource on the medical details of the Passion is ‘On The Physical Death Of Jesus Christ’ by William D. Edwards, MD; Wesley J. Gabel, MDiv; Floyd E Hosmer, MS, AMI, at http://www.intermirifica.org/lent/passion1.htm |

Submitted by Joey W
at 1/30/2004 1:17:19 PM| Let me make one comment to all here about how Rev. Stranger's commentary might best be viewed:
The title of the movie is "The Passion." Not "The New Testament", not "The Gospels", not "A History of Jesus", not "Let's Ridicule the Jews and Muslims" - and, especially, not "A Sugar-Coated, Sanitized, Symbolic Portrayal of Some of the Last Things That Happened to Jesus." It's about the Passion of Christ - HIS suffering, HIS sacrifice. So it should be expected that it will be "gory" (at least if it's making any attempt to be factual) and will show the words and actions of the Passion as based in the Gospel accounts, regardless of what "spin" modern J Scott - one of our parishioners has kept a copy of the article I mentioned, and has promised to duplicate it for me. Thank you very much for your offer! |

Submitted by Jane M
at 2/2/2004 9:38:11 PM| very late comment on this thread - Isaiah 53
Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured...he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins; upon him lies the punishment that brings us peace and by his wounds we are healed....we had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way, but the Lord laid upon him the guilt of us all.... etc, etc |

Submitted by Bradley from UT
at 2/5/2004 12:45:32 AM| Chris, While I agree with your opinion that this reverend didn't know what he was talking about, or even what the purpose or the life of Christ was; I don't believe that you have any right to criticize the Episcopalian Church so condescendingly. We are all imperfect beings, and it is our duty to lift up, not tear down. In more than a few of your posts, you attempt to malign the Episcopalians (or as you put it "Piskies"). Please reconsider your position, and try to be a little more Christ-like in your judgments. |

Submitted by ANNiE
at 8/25/2005 9:05:58 PM| Why are the Jesus followers treating each other so horribly due to the differences in their belief regard to Jesus? Personally, I think Rev. Mark Stanger is an EXCELLENT Pastor, EXCELLENT clergyman, he is a VERY VERY WISE person with wonderful energy, wonderful spirit. |











I plan to see this movie, although I don't think I'll enjoy it, precisely. The fact is that when Jesus died for my sins he didn't pass away peacefully after having been given anesthesia.
Does anyone know if the Resurrection is portrayed? I suppose not, if it's "The Passion."