THE MCJ

Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible. - Søren Kierkegaard

THE CONTAGION SPREADS

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Bishop Peter Rogness comes down with a bad case of Griswold's Syndrome:

There is part of me that resists sending this note, since I steadfastly maintain that we ought not cave in to the culture’s hysteria over sexuality issues and let it take over the church as well. Certainly there are significant issues to be pondered here, not least of which are issues of authority of Scripture and the evolving awareness of homosexual orientation. Important, yes, but issues that do not warrant the shrill and divisive debate heard in many places.

That would be the Anglican Communion.  And where have you heard this before?

We need to not get side-tracked on issues of sexuality. I believe there are issues far more central to our life as a church, issues that ought to be more central.

So what should ELCA do about the sexuality issues?  Rogness has an interesting and positively Episcopalian suggestion.  Absolutely nothing at all:

In 2001, the ELCA in churchwide assembly embarked on a four-year process designed to bring two questions, long a source of discussion and consternation, to recommendation/action in 2005: the blessing of same-gender relationships and the ordination of homosexual persons in committed relationships. The 2003 Churchwide Assembly re-affirmed a commitment to this timeline.

Much study and discussion, formal and informal, is taking place. Much avoidance is also taking place. What is not being avoided is a nearly universal anxiety about what this issue is about to do to our church, and an almost-as-universal yearning by what seems to be a large middle of our church to somehow avoid this outcome.

Or, put more simply, “Can we find a way not to vote on these matters?”

I believe both the anxiety and the yearning are remarkably perceptive and healthy and provide a clue for how we as a church ought to shape our response.

If we have a vote, then people will have to say what they think about this issue and some people will get mad.  Why not wait and see what God wants us to do?  After all, the Spirit could be doing a new thing and we wouldn't want to get in the way, would we?  Pete's been sitting at the feet of the master:

This is one of those times. I hear more and more people expressing the view that a vote on these matters will not be helpful. A vote will not change one person’s mind or move us any closer to consensus; it will create winners and losers. This is a time to allow our church to live with the ongoing diversity of view and unfolding discernment that will happen in God’s good time. In the book of Acts, Gamaliel saw the wisdom of patiently waiting for God’s unfolding clarity. We need to do so as well.

Since we, in fact, are bound by our procedures and will indeed have a churchwide assembly in 2005, we will be challenged to find a place to stand (and yes, I know, we will ultimately have to vote on that place to stand) that does not constitute a major change in our theology and policy, but acknowledges that at this time in the life of our church our discernment continues to unfold and leaves us at different places. Perhaps we need to find a way not to vote that is not a de-facto victory for the status quo, but acknowledges and allows us to be at different places and for our church life to continue its unfolding. And we will need to find a way that recognizes that four years was our timetable to come to clarity, but perhaps not the Spirit’s.

We draw our vitality from being a spiritual community of which Christ—not Roberts Rules of Orderis the head. We need to have rules, of course. But we need to act, whenever we can, not simply as a legislative body but as a community gathered to celebrate and discern God’s movement among us. Sometimes that work of discernment does not conform to the legislative process. This is one of those times.

Can you say "Gene Robinson-like strategy to create facts and the ground and completely end debate on this issue before it begins?"  Knew you could: 

Can we agree that living with these differing perspectives for a time might be less harmful for the church than a divisive vote that does nothing to bring us together?

Can we trust that the future will make more clear whether society’s changing attitudes toward homosexuality are a good thing, rather than force ourselves to decide on a fixed timetable?

Can we let those congregations who want to seek new ways of ministering to gay and lesbian people do that without making a new church policy?

Can we let otherwise qualified candidates be approved if there are congregations wanting to call them, and synods and candidacy committees who know them and believe they will enhance the ministry of the church—without presuming to change in one sweeping vote the long-held views of the church?

Can we find a way to live with our differing perspectives, re-affirming our commitment to Christ as the head of the church and the Scriptures as the source and norm of our church’s faith and life?

Can we agree that it is more important for us to be a church that prays about these matters than a church that votes about them?

A strategy which appears to be well underway:

A third congregation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in the Twin Cities has voted to call an openly gay pastor, defying ELCA policy that forbids ordination of anyone in a same-sex relationship.

Bethany Lutheran Church, on Franklin Avenue in Minneapolis' Seward neighborhood, intends to ordain Jay Wiesner on July 25 and call him as a pastor.

"We hope this action will have a positive effect" on the ELCA, Benson said this week. There is "some worry about creating a backlash" by doing something so public, but "we also realize no liberation movement has happened by people remaining quiet."

And so it begins again.  Those of us fleeing ECUSA's apostasy had better prepare to be joined at some point by conservative Lutherans because regardless of which way ELCA's vote turns out in 2005, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America looks like it will eventually travel the trail blazed by ECUSA.

Posted on 3/11/2004 12:05:59 PM , 23 comments

Submitted by Russ+ at 3/11/2004 12:24:33 PM

Somewhere I heard the term, "smash and grab politics" used to describe disorder of the San Francisco gay marriage liscenes. "Smash and grab theology" or "polity" pretty much sums up what is being practiced in ECUSA and in the ELCA as well.
Submitted by craig at 3/11/2004 1:40:11 PM

I said it months ago and I'll say it again: this is the wake that will swamp all the boats of mainline and evangelical Protestantism.

None can reject this heresy without rejecting either the modernism within their ranks or the Protestant insistence upon individual interpretation. The only successful arguments against are appeals to Scriptural literalism or to capital-T Holy Tradition. So the only survivors forty years hence will be a few scattered fundamentalists, Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy.
Submitted by Bret at 3/11/2004 1:50:46 PM

Seems the only difference between the ECUSA and the ELCA is two letters, otherwise, they are identical. Tweedledee and Tweedledum. Titanic is going down, Lusitania has just been torpedoed.
Submitted by Ken at 3/11/2004 2:10:03 PM

Just to refresh our memories:

Yes, of course, there are more important issues than sexuality, like the Incarnation, the Atonement, and (big one coming up), the RESURRECTION. But...

1.) Sexuality is the heresy at hand and in a sexually obsessed society, it assumes an added weight.
2.) While "sins of the spirit are more important than sins of the flesh", homosexualism is a heresy far more extensive than homosexual acts. It involves a theology of the human person which is deviant and ultimately destructive of our humanity. In other words, homosexual acts are sins of the flesh, but homosexualism rises, I think, to the level of a "sin of the spirit".
3.) The homosexualists tend to deny the more weighty doctrines, anyway. It's generally of a piece, though some homosexualists do profess many orthodox Christians beliefs.
Submitted by J. Scott at 3/11/2004 2:24:10 PM

A scene at City Hall in San Francisco:

"Next!"
"Good morning. We want to apply for a marriage license."
"Names?"
"Tim and Jim Jones."
"Jones? Are you related? I see a resemblance."
"Yes, we're brothers."
"Brothers? You can't get married."
"Why not? Aren't you giving marriage licenses to same gender couples?"
"Yes, thousands. But we haven't had any siblings. That's incest!"
"Incest?" No, we are not gay."
"Not gay? Then why do you want to get married?"
"For the financial benefits, of course. And we do love each other. Besides, we don't have any other prospects."
"But we're issuing marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples who've been denied equal protection under the law. If you are not gay, you can get married to a woman."
"Wait a minute. A gay man has the same right to marry a woman as I have. But just because I'm straight doesn't mean I want to marry a woman. I want to marry Jim."
"And I want to marry Tim, Are you going to discriminate against us just because we are not gay?"
"All right, all right. I'll give you your license.
Next!"
"Hi. We are here to get married."
"Names?"
"John Smith, Jane James, Robert Green, and June Johnson."
"Who wants to marry whom?"
"We all want to marry each other."
"But there are four of you!"
"That's right. You see, we're all bisexual. I love Jane and Robert, Jane loves me and June, June loves Robert and Jane, and Robert loves June and me. All of us getting married together is the only way that we can
express our sexual preferences in a marital relationship."
"But we've only been granting licenses to gay and lesbian couples."
"So you're discriminating against bisexuals!"
"No, it's just that, well, the traditional idea of marriage is that it's just for couples."
"Since when are you standing on tradition?"
"Well, I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere."
"Who says? There's no logical reason to limit marriage to couples. The more the better. Besides, we demand our rights! The mayor says the constitution guarantees equal protection under the law. Give us a marriage license!"
"All right, all right. Next!"
"Hello, I'd like a marriage license."
"In what names?"
"David Deets."
"And the other man?"
"That's all. I want to marry myself."
"Marry yourself? What do you mean?"
"Well, my psychiatrist says I have a dual personality, so I want to marry the two together. Maybe I can file a joint income tax return."
"That does it! I quit! You people are making a mockery of marriage!"
Submitted by Christopher Johnson at 3/11/2004 2:43:48 PM

Offhand, I'd say that the Orthodox, because of the structure of their church, are much better positioned than the Catholics are to withstand these sorts of attacks. If John Paul II is succeeded by a man who does not attend to doctrinal affairs as strictly or does not lay down the law to the American church as vigorously as he does now, then many American Catholics will have difficult decisions of their own to make.

The attacks probably won't resemble the ones plaguing Anglicanism now; the enemy has many different weapons in his arsenal. But they are coming. And a capital-T Holy Tradition that is not backed up by the will to enforce its provisions will not even slow them down.
Submitted by Bill Troy at 3/11/2004 3:12:40 PM

Compare the ELCA position with that of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (see www.lcms.org). The doctrines of the LCMS more closely resemble those of the traditional Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.
Submitted by MJD_NV at 3/11/2004 3:21:49 PM

J Scott - BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
I almost choked on my Altoid! That's great!

This article is the reason why my son is going to school with the Wisconsin Synod Lutherans (WELS). Even Missouri Synod is beginning to have what they call "the ELCA disease" creeping in - WELS so far has stood firm. The pastor at my son's new school is far better educated than most 3 ECUSA priests I know combined.

If ELCA is that dumb, let them die the same death as ECUSA, while the rest of us go out and make disciples.
Submitted by Duane at 3/11/2004 6:37:34 PM

what is the difference between the Wisconsin Synod and the Missouri Synod? I drive by a WELS church every day but don't know much about it.
Submitted by MC from CA at 3/11/2004 6:43:35 PM

Ken,

Another memory refresher: when a clergyman denies the virgin birth or the resurrection, that's not important because it's just an arcane obscure point of doctrine that has nothing to with people's real lives. But when a clergyman rejects traditional teaching on sexuality, that's not important because it's not a "core doctrine" of the church; it's not "creedal." You must remember both of these things, but never at the same time, because then you might realize that nothing is important.

MC
Submitted by Connecticut Yankee at 3/11/2004 8:19:00 PM


Hi Christopher-- For the sake of other Lutherans (whether ELCA or LC-MS or ELCiC [Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada]) who may read your website-- here is the URL of Solid Rock Lutherans, a group of conservative and orthodox folk (including bishops as well as pastors, theologians, and laypeople) who state: "We are dedicated to upholding the current biblical and [Lutheran] confessional standards on sexual conduct and ordination. We believe that the Word of God affirms the union of woman and man in the bonds of marriage and that only those who are guided by this Word be considered for ordination." Bp. Rogness does NOT speak for all of us by a long chalk!

(The website has some materials on how to argue with the pro-gay lobby, too.)

http://www.sldrck.org/

Thank you! I have friends in ECUSA who are just heartsick. Oremus pro invicem.
Submitted by Marc at 3/11/2004 8:28:54 PM

I'm WELS. The main differences between the WELS and the Missouri-Synod are in Fellowship (and a few other things such as the roles of women in the Church). That's extremely general, and I don't want to get into any deeper here.

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=783&contentID=4433&shortcutID=4869

That's a link to a (bleah, PDF) thing called This We Believe which states the beliefs of the WELS. The home site for the WELS is http://www.wels.net It was recently redesigned with an ugly stick, it appears.
Submitted by J. Scott at 3/11/2004 10:22:36 PM

MJD_NV - I'm glad you enjoyed that piece - and equally glat you didn't choke to death reading it!

As much as I wish I'd written it, I can't take credit for it. My brother forwarded it to me earlier in the day.

But I think it makes a valid point in a way that homosexualists can't convincingly debunk.
Submitted by Daniel Sellers at 3/11/2004 11:24:09 PM

Some of us in the LCMS looked at the "pannel" that formed to discuss homosexulatity. As far as we can tell, out of the 12 members on that committee, 10 will probably vote to allow homosexual unions and ordination (I wish I could find the link that broke it all down). My contact within the ELCA (a seminarian who is studying under the watchful eye of Gerhard Forde, who thinks the ELCA is dead) thinks that the church will split into four parts.

Nothing good has come from the ELCA alligning herself with the Reformed and ECUSA.
Submitted by Jon at 3/12/2004 9:42:14 AM

MC,
You're right on the money. The dissenters don't have to worry about all of their arguments being consistent with each other. The normal attention span of the public is rather short and a large portion don't bother to make an effort to think issues through. To borrow a phrase from another blogger (Mark Shea)...

Short history of man: "What can it hurt?" followed sometime later by, "How was I supposed to know?"
Submitted by William Tighe at 3/12/2004 10:31:25 AM

Duane,

A couple of months ago I surfed through both the LC-MS and the WELS websites and found that the differences separating the two are these three things:

1. Theological Agreement for Church Fellowship: the WELS believes that there has to be total agreement for fellowship/communion whereas the LC-MS thinks that there has to be agreement "on essentials"

2. Women's Suffrage: the WELS thinks that women should not vote in congregational elections, be eligible to be members of the church council ("Vestry"?) and so forth. The unstated implication is that women should not be able to vote in political/secular elections (I think).

3. Ordained Ministry: I don't completely understand this, but the LC-MC thinks that the only form of ministry that is by "divine right", warranted by the scriptures is the parish pastorate; all others (bishops -- which the LC-MS does not have -- deacons, acolytes, Sunday school teachers etc.) are legitimate, but humanly instituted, offices, whereas the WELS rejects this and would appear to think that other church functionaries (the controversy was oiriginally over the status of Sunday school teachers!) share in the divinely-instituted Ministry of the Word.
Submitted by Jeff Bloomquist at 3/12/2004 10:46:19 AM

I was a life-long Lutheran (confirmed LCMS, member ELCA for about 15 yrs because no LCMS churches are nearby), who left 2 years ago for the sake of my kids. I got tired of ministers who don't believe in hell, judgement, repentence, sin, and ultimately reject the divinity, power, and redemption of Jesus Christ. The ELCA leadership tried to get the laity to approve of gay marriage/ordination 10 years ago, but didn't have the votes, so they re-introduce the heresy every 5 years or so until they can get what they want. That time is now at hand. I suspect the liberals (like Peter Rogness) are scared by what they see happening in the ECUSA. All that money headed out the door! So that's why their mushy rhetoric is the same, and I think the outcome (schism within the ELCA) will be the same. Conservatives will eventually have to leave, because liberals control the national positions in the Church. Personally, I got tired of being the only one in my adult Sunday school class (besides my wife) who believed the Bible, and of being called "judgemental" whenever I stood up for Biblical truth and God's moral law. Staying in a church like this ain't worth it, folks. You can witness till you're blue in the face, but you can't save people who don't want to be saved. I appreciate the fact that we're called to be faithful, not necessarily successful, but your spirit will thirst for the Word like a person stranded in the desert. I'm in with a bunch of fundamentalist Methodists for now (we have an excellent youth group, too), but the liberal poison is there as well. I see it eventually splitting all the Christian churches into orthodox/heterodox camps. Orthodox Christianity and homosexualism cannot coexist. One always marginalizes the other.
Submitted by daphne at 3/12/2004 11:41:23 AM

I'm glad you found a good Methodist Church, Jeff. And I think your summary of the state of affairs among various churches in North America is a valid one. When I was a Methodist, my bishop was in perfect agreement with Frank G. with respect to homosexuals in ministry. Now that I belong to ECUSA, my bishop opposes ordaining sexually active homosexuals, and is much more faithful to Holy Scripture than my Methodist bishop was. You cannot tell just by denomination label.

I understand people who must leave ECUSA. But "the situation on the ground" varies so much from parish to parish and denomination to denomination. I think we all must live close to Our Lord and seek his guidance in these matters. We are all threads in a tapestry we cannot see.
Submitted by Jeff Bloomquist at 3/12/2004 12:07:08 PM

daphne:

Your point is well taken. If I had been able to find a faithful Lutheran church, I'd probably still be there. However, they are in my experience, few and far between, at least within the ELCA.
Submitted by MJD_NV at 3/12/2004 2:01:55 PM

Whatever the source, J Scott, it's a classic - thank your brother for me. :)

Interesting points, William T - I haven't studied the two as closely; my knowledge comes from my in-the-field observations. In the WELS school where my son will begin K-garten in the fall, the only difference from LC-MS I've really observed is your first point. (Of course, since we went to APCK, I didn't get too involved in the WELS parish council make-up. I do assure you, though, that from talking with some of the ladies at coffee hour, they definitely vote in secular elections!) In this, I believe that LC-MS is closer to Anglicnaism; however, the local observation is that some more liberal LC-MS parishes are no different than ELCA churches, and the more conservative ones are really more like WELS. It will be interesting to see if there's a split. Let us pray for both the WELS and LC-MS communities, that they may be prepared to absorb the remnant when ELCA explodes.
Submitted by Sasha at 3/12/2004 5:17:39 PM

Even for WELS, we'd better beware - they're using "gender-inclusive" language in their rendition of the Nicene Creed as far as Mankind is concerned!!!! That already is a danger sign - for once they start changing things for Man, to do so for God isn't that far behind...:-(

As proof, see http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=711&contentID=4334&shortcutID=2077
Submitted by People's Champ at 3/12/2004 9:21:08 PM

Speaking as a disgruntled ELCA member, I know that if there was a break in the ELCA, there probably wouldn't be a wholesale move by millions to the Missiouri Synod, much less to the Wisconsin Synod. It appears, at least to me, that the LCMS wouldn't take the majority of us who would probably leave since they would view us as "too liberal" for them (and the same goes for the WELS).

For example, I would consider myself a theological conservative. But since I agree with women's ordination and a certain amount of open communion, I'd be a liberal in the LCMS.

This, along with the fact that the LCMS appears to be going through a severe identity crisis right now, makes me believe that they couldn't absorb ELCA refugees.

There's only two ways this will pan out. Everyone will stay and try to change the rules by staying in the game or most of the upper midwest along with other assorted churches would spilt and try to reform the old American Lutheran Church.

As for Mr. Rogness, this is typical for him since he was the one who restored St. Paul-Reformation Church to full status, even though the non-ceibate lesiban they "ordained" is still in ministry there and the church hasn't repented for their action to this day.
Submitted by GB at 3/12/2004 10:07:53 PM

ELCA is not the answer that traditional Anglicans are seeking. The Reformed Episcopal Church or the Anglican Church in America are the correct answer and you do not have to be a high Anglo-Catholic. You may have to contact a bishop and then organize a parish yourself, but it is worth the effort. I know because I have done it. God Bless You All.



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