THE MCJ

Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible. - Søren Kierkegaard

OFF WE GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER

Get ready for the ride of your life as Frank Griswold desperately tries to explain himself and his church to the Lambeth Commission:

Rather than respond to the questionnaire I thought it would be more helpful were I to send to you to share with members of the Commission a description of some of the workings of the Episcopal Church, pertinent to your deliberations, and also to try to give some sense of how we have come to a point in our life where we find ourselves having given consent to the election and consecration of a man who shares his life with a member of the same sex.

I wish you wouldn't, Frank.  You know what happens when you start explaining things.

For at least 35 years the Episcopal Church has been engaged in a process of discernment about the question of homosexuality in the life of the church. This discernment began quite naturally on a local level as congregations began to be aware that certain faithful members of their worshipping communities were homosexual. In some instances these persons shared their lives with a partner of the same sex. It also became obvious that the quality of such relationships on occasion matched the mutual care and self-giving that we associate with marriage.

The quality of such relationships “on occasion matched the mutual care and self-giving that we associate with marriage?”  What was the quality the rest of the time, Frank?

It is important to realize here that in many areas of our church, particularly urban areas, homosexuality is a very ordinary reality.

So is adultery, stealing, murder and every other sin in the book.  What's your point?

The whole question of homosexuality is widely and openly discussed. And homosexual persons are quite public in areas of politics, sports and entertainment.

There are lots of atheists “in areas of politics, sports and entertainment” too.  Still not following you, Frank.

I realize this is not the case around our Communion but this fact of our culture must be taken into account given that none of us do our theology in a vacuum.

Quite true.  But only the Episcopal Church seems to get its theology from a vacuum.

In the gospel Jesus speaks about knowing a tree by the fruit it bears. In congregations where persons known to be homosexual became a part of congregational life, it became obvious that they possessed the fruit of the Spirit: generosity, kindness, and many of the other characteristics that we associate with Christian virtue. I think here of the experience of the church in Acts, having to deal with the fruit of the Spirit working in the lives of those outside the recognized community, in this case the Gentiles. The fact that in many instances good fruit appeared on trees that were condemned by the church obliged many clergy and others to ponder the scriptures afresh in the light of this reality. If the fruit of the Spirit is discerned in the lives of homosexual men and women is that not in some way an indication by God that these people are to be treated and seen as full members of the community and to be entrusted with ministry on behalf of the community? So, based on the reality around us of men and women who were part of our lives, we continued our discernment.

Would it be okay with the readership if I tried a little experiment?  I'm going to take that last passage of Frank's and edit it ever so slightly:

In the gospel Jesus speaks about knowing a tree by the fruit it bears. In congregations where persons known to be adulterous became a part of congregational life, it became obvious that they possessed the fruit of the Spirit: generosity, kindness, and many of the other characteristics that we associate with Christian virtue. I think here of the experience of the church in Acts, having to deal with the fruit of the Spirit working in the lives of those outside the recognized community, in this case the Gentiles. The fact that in many instances good fruit appeared on trees that were condemned by the church obliged many clergy and others to ponder the scriptures afresh in the light of this reality. If the fruit of the Spirit is discerned in the lives of adulterous men and women is that not in some way an indication by God that these people are to be treated and seen as full members of the community and to be entrusted with ministry on behalf of the community? So, based on the reality around us of men and women who were part of our lives, we continued our discernment.

Do you think that there is a serious person anywhere in the Christian church who would dare attempt to advance such an argument?  But it's just as valid as Frank's original point.  I know a former member of my parish, as warm and friendly and accepting a person as I've ever known, who left his wife and kids and took up with another woman.  Why is homosexual activity given a pass simply because some of the people who practice it are really nice folks(and yes, I fully realize the rhetoricality of that question)?

Over these years homosexual persons, lay and ordained, have gradually become a vital part of our church. And, as a logical development, congregations have extended a pastoral ministry to their gay and lesbian members. In some congregations there has been acknowledgment of same sex commitments. Then, as a logical consequence of the acceptance of gay and lesbian persons in the life of congregations and dioceses, the church as a whole has been engaging the question of homosexuality, including in the formal legislative context of the General Convention. At the General Convention in 1976 a resolution was passed stating: “…that homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church.” Ten years ago at the General Convention in 1994 a resolution was passed amending the canons such that “no one shall be denied access to the selection process for ordination in this Church because of race, color, ethnic origin, national origin, marital status, sexual orientation, disabilities or age…” Our engagement as a church with questions of homosexuality has lead to a series of studies and dialogues which have been broadly undertaken and involved persons of a full range of opinion.

These conversations, which have been both very structured and unstructured, from settings such as parish halls to the floors of formal gatherings, have been concerned with the authority and interpretation of scripture, human sexuality as God’s gift, the place of homosexual Christians within the life of the church and the theological aspects of committed relationships of same sex couples.

Translation: we really need gay pledge money so the only thing we're trying to “discern” is how we can quit calling homosexual activity a sin while still being able to tell the rubes that we revere the Scriptures.

As part of this work, in 1993 the House of Bishops commissioned from theologians representing diverse points of view a series of papers dealing with authority of scripture. The papers reflected different ways in which scripture may legitimately be approached within the context of the community of faith.

Told you.

I realize that some provinces of our Communion have a dominant tradition for interpreting scripture.

They believe that words mean what they say.

I would note here that it is part of the reality of the Episcopal Church that we live with divergent points of view regarding the interpretation of scripture and understandings of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the church.

Some in the Episcopal Church worship Yahweh, others worship the Zeitgeist.

Though we believe “the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the Word of God, and to contain all things necessary to salvation,”

When Scripture tells us what we want to hear.

as it is stated in our ordination liturgy, there is no neutral reading of scripture, and we interpret various passages differently while seeking to be faithful to the mind of Christ.

When Scripture tells what we don't want to hear.

It is therefore important to recognize that people of genuine faith can and do differ in their understandings of what we agree is the “Word of God.”

Where we part company, Frank, is that I believe the Bible is the Word of God.  All of it, even the passages which get in my way.

None of our work and prayerful discernment has produced a common mind, and we have managed to live with the tension of diverse opinions on these matters, agreeing to disagree.

As, apparently, do the rest of ECUSA's conservatives.

We were living in a very Anglican way with divergent views until the circumstances of our life, and the canons of our church, forced us into making an either/or decision in a very public way with the election of the bishop coadjutor of New Hampshire,

AKA the Fact on the Ground.

and the canonical necessity for giving or withholding of consent. This either/or decision did not allow for the middle ground, which the report of the Theology Committee of the House of Bishops (which was submitted to the primates prior to our meeting in Brazil) had sought to establish.

None of this was my fault.  It was those sneaky canons so please don't kick us out.

The consent to the New Hampshire election has been a presenting issue in our present strains within the Communion. Therefore I think it is important to acknowledge that there is a diversity of practice in appointing or electing bishops around the Communion and to say something here about the nature of our election and consent process, which is open, democratic, and participatory – flowing out of the life of the community. The manner in which bishops are chosen in the Episcopal Church involves a protracted search process undertaken by the diocese, lasting usually a year or longer, in which a profile is developed by the people and clergy of the diocese. Names are put forward and a search committee composed of lay and clergy members reviews the names, checks backgrounds, addresses questions to potential nominees and then puts forward a list of names to be considered. The diocese then has an opportunity to meet and ask questions of all the nominees. This was the process followed in the Diocese of New Hampshire, and at the end of that process the diocesan convention elected the Rev. Canon Gene Robinson, someone who had ministered among them for 17 years.

Apropos of what exactly?  Robbie is a man who divorced his wife(and I don't even remotely care if if was amicable or not) and took up with another man, a relationship the church does not recognize.  His election wiped out in one stroke everything the Episcopal Church had ever said about homosexual activity and completely shut down this “dialogue” Frank thinks is going on.  The fact that it took New Hampshire a long time to select him is less than irrelevant.

Once a person has been elected, the election must be consented to by a majority of Standing Committees of dioceses and a majority of bishops holding jurisdiction. When an election occurs within 120 days of the General Convention, the consent process takes place within the context of the General Convention, which is precisely what happened in the case of Gene Robinson and nine other bishops-elect.

Again, who cares?

I think it is very important to be clear about this process. When we met at Lambeth the primates asked me if I couldn’t have intervened and stopped the consecration. I made it clear that I could not because of the canonical realities by which I am bound, and that it is my responsibility to uphold the decisions formally made by the church. I think it is problematic that some view the bishops who participated in the ordination and consecration of Gene Robinson as having performed some unfaithful act. This is to overlook the fact that it was a formal decision made by a majority of bishops with jurisdiction and majority of clergy and laypeople representing the 100 domestic dioceses.

No.  Frank didn't just write that.  That's not possible.  Not even Frank could write something that dumb.  It must be...oh my dear Lord, he actually is that stupid.  Approving Robinson was a faithful act because the majority of the clergy voted for it?  You know, Frank, it is entirely possible for majorities of people to be horribly wrong about stuff.  1933 Germany, for example.    
 
I might say that the very public and open nature of our actions is a factor here. This is both healthy and problematic. Not long ago I was at a meeting in Spain which included Christians from a number of ecclesial communities, one of which had made strongly critical statements about the New Hampshire consecration. I had a long conversation with the bishop representing that church, who castigated me for having allowed the ordination of Gene Robinson to occur. Once he had delivered himself of his anger he surprised me by saying that there were indeed homosexual clergy and bishops in his church, but that it was looked upon as “human weakness” and a private matter between themselves and their spiritual fathers. Only if their homosexuality became public was the church obliged to intervene. I said to him that though I could appreciate capitulation to “human weakness” I was concerned that he was describing a climate of secrecy, and a practice that was tolerated that stood at variance with the public position of the church.

Was that not a dishonest stance? Would it not be far more helpful and truthful, albeit difficult, to deal openly with the reality which heretofore has remained hidden? Is not secrecy the Devil’s playground? It has been extremely difficult for the Episcopal Church to deal honestly with this issue, but that is the course we have taken and, as I said, the decision of which course to take – openness or secrecy – was one that was forced upon us.

Which is worse, Frank?  To be secret about a sin?  Or to openly and publicly say that a sin is not actually a sin at all?

I believe that part of the strain within the Communion, and the reaction to a decision taken within the Episcopal Church is the disproportionate influence that the United States has in other parts of the world, leading to the fear that whatever happens in the United States will be imposed in some way on other parts of the world. I am well aware of the negative effects of globalization. I need to make plain that because something may appear to be an unfoldment of the Spirit in the life of the Episcopal Church that does not mean that it should or ought to become normative elsewhere.

That is one nationalistic deity you've got there, Frank.  If this is, in fact, a work of the Holy Spirit, then why in blazes shouldn't it be “normative elsewhere?”  Does God have one set of rules for the United States and another for Canada?  Is Iceland let out of observing commandments that are binding on Bulgaria? 

Never would our church wish to impose patterns that may be appropriate within the life of the Episcopal Church on other provinces of the Anglican Communion. I remember vividly when I visited the Church in Nigeria and was asked if I was coming to tell them they must ordain women. I told them I firmly believed that is a decision they will have to make within the reality of their own context. There is not one right way. Immediately, there was relief on the part of the bishops.

So if Nigeria decides that “the reality of their own context” means that practicing homosexuals ought to be expelled from the church, you'd be down with it? 

This raises the very important notion of context, to which I alluded earlier. We must ask: are our understandings and applications of the gospel conditioned by the historical and cultural circumstances in which we live our lives and seek to articulate our faithful discipleship? I believe the answer is yes. As one primate expressed it “the Holy Spirit can do different things in different places.”

True.  But the Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself.  Unless that's not a particularly holy spirit that's moving in the Episcopal Church these days.

When I think of a way forward, the first thing I think of is the need to be respectful of one another’s contexts, to trust one another, and to honor the fact that we are each trying to be faithful in very different circumstances. I pray we can acknowledge to one another that we are each trying, with God’s help, to articulate and live the gospel within the givenness of our own context.

Please stop using the word “context” so much, Frank.

There are several other dynamics at work in creating the strains we feel within our beloved Communion which I will briefly mention. One is electronic communication. Events in one part of the world are instantly transmitted across the globe. Our contexts invade one another without explanation. Because our world has become very small we need to remember that our day to day realities are vastly different.

As well, the speed of communication can oblige us to react to situations and events in other parts of our Communion without the benefit of knowing how brother and sister Anglicans were led to a particular decision. I vividly recall being in Uganda driving through a very remote area and having the primate called on his cell phone by a reporter in Canada for his reaction to an event in the Church of Canada.

Electronic communication also makes it easy for misinformation to be spread abroad and take on a life of its own. This is all the more reason for us to deal directly with one another when there are serious questions or concerns, and not rely on interpretations or reports that may be untrue or biased.

Why Frank.  You should have told me you've been by.  I would have sent you a free coffee mug or something.

Another dynamic is the role members of my own church with a particular point of view have played in shaping opinions, shall we say, since before the last Lambeth Conference. We must openly acknowledge the fact that part of the reason issues of homosexuality have so overtaken the Anglican Communion is because a number of the members of the Episcopal Church – along with individuals and groups motivated by political ideologies rather than theological convictions – have, by virtue of their connections and resources, been able to garner the consciousness of bishops around the world. Their unstinting efforts have made this issue more central to our life than the spreading of the gospel and the living of the Good News of Jesus Christ. We must ask ourselves if this preoccupation with sexuality is truly of God.

Pot?  This is Kettle.  Do you have any idea how black you are? 

In the entire Griswoldian oeuvre, I don't believe that Frank has ever been as remotely or as magisterially mendacious as he is in this one paragraph.  The attempt in the Episcopal Church to make homosexuals feel better about themselves has been a purely political act, with a “theology” that intellectually-serious people consider a bad joke. 

Yet, to Frank, those of us who try to defend the Christian faith from those who would rewrite it to suit the culture are “motivated by political ideologies rather than theological convictions” and we've somehow ”garnered the consciousness” of bishops around the world.  Interesting, rather insulting and vaguely racist idea, that one, that the bishops of the Anglican Communion can have their consciousnesses ”garnered” so easily.  

I was particularly struck at the conclusion of our meeting in October when one of the primates plaintively said his concerns were not about sexuality but about poverty and disease and civil unrest in his part of the world, at which point several other primates nodded in agreement. It is a great sadness to me, broadly felt throughout our church, that the Episcopal Church in the simple living of our life has added to the burdens that so many primates and bishops bear in other parts of the Communion. It is my hope that in finding a way forward we can simply agree that for any number of reasons we are not in agreement about concerns of homosexuality, and indeed human sexuality more broadly.

No it isn't ”broadly felt throughout our church” at all, Frank.  Episcopal liberals couldn't care less about the rest of the Anglican world and never have cared.  But I agree that ”we are not in agreement about concerns of homosexuality, and indeed human sexuality more broadly.”  That ”we” on your part might be a trifle optimistic though.

A closing thought: Communion, as Archbishop Rowan has made clear, exists on many levels; it is not simply a formal, ecclesial relationship. Therefore, I ask myself and the members of my own church in the midst of this profound and straining disagreement if there is not some invitation or opportunity to live the mystery of communion at a deeper level, as difficult and costly as it may be. Are we not being invited in a more profound way to make room for one another’s realities and one another’s contexts both at home and abroad? Do we not have things to learn from one another? Do we not all possess, woven into the fabric of our lives in virtue of our baptism into Christ’s risen body, dimensions of the truth as in Jesus, who is himself the truth? Are we not being given the opportunity to experience in the depths of the communion we share, which is our participation in the very life of God, the fullness of God in Christ which exceeds all that we can ask or imagine?

“We,” Frank?  Ever hear the one about counting your chickens?  But to answer your questions, given the way the ECUSA can higher-criticize the Word of God into any shape it likes, given the way it insouciantly ignored the pleas and advice of the rest of the Anglican world and given its spoken and unspoken contempt for the “realities” of Nigeria and elsewhere in the Third World, I would say that the Anglican Communion has nothing whatsoever to learn from the Episcopal Church.  Because the only thing crypto-Unitarian bodies like the ECUSA have in common with Christianity is the terminology that the Episcopalians haven't gotten around to abandoning yet.

UPDATE: It wasn't apparent when I first read it, but according to this site, Frank's letter is almost two months old.  I wonder why ENS or ACNS never got around to publishing it.  Actually, I don't wonder at all.

Posted on 3/29/2004 1:40:02 AM , 68 comments

Submitted by Duane at 3/29/2004 6:31:19 AM

"Is Iceland let out of observing commandments that are binding on Bulgaria?"
Chris: That might be good fodder for a contest, your line about different commandments for different countries. Pick a country and come up with commandments that apply-or don't- to that country.
Submitted by Uncle Dino at 3/29/2004 6:49:50 AM

I am not surprised that he chose to ignore the questionnaire, whatever it be, and instead opted to shovel out his barn full of 'realities' (used 9 times) and 'contexts' (used 9 times) and 'communion/community' (used 21 times) into now-expected obfuscation.

This Griswoldian statement about sums it up for me:

"Are we not being invited in a more profound way to make room for one another's realities and one another's contexts both at home and abroad?"

I pray that he will someday take a class in how to write in plain English. I am adding new words like 'unfoldment' and 'givenness' to my vocabulary. As soon as someone tells me what they mean, I'll start using them myself.

But at least Mr. Griswold did not regurgitate the usual 'there is more that unites us than separates us' mantra.

Speaking about 'context', here is yesterday's Old Testament reading:

Isaiah 43:16-21

This is what the LORD says- he who made a way through the sea, a path through the mighty waters, who drew out the chariots and horses, the army and reinforcements together, and they lay there, never to rise again, extinguished, snuffed out like a wick:

"Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past.

See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the desert and streams in the wasteland.

The wild animals honor me, the jackals and the owls, because I provide water in the desert and streams in the wasteland, to give drink to my people, my chosen, the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.
Submitted by Jeff Bloomquist at 3/29/2004 7:10:09 AM

Interesting that he cites Paul's "Fruits of the spirit..." from Philipians, I think. Too bad he didn't cite any of the things Paul said about homosexuality in Romans, first Corinthians, and first Timothy.
Submitted by Jeffersonian at 3/29/2004 7:22:03 AM

R. Emmett Tyrell of the American Spectator has a word for this sort of thing: Kultursmog. And it's obvious to anyone who can parse English that Bishop Griswold is a great smokestack pumping out extravagant plumes of the stuff at all hours of the day. I'd even wager that he believes his own press at times, so deluded and fatuous is his flapdoodle.
Submitted by Katherine at 3/29/2004 7:46:08 AM

Outstanding treatment, Chris. What pompous and fat-headed letter Griswold has written. I hope he doesn't have too many mirrors at his house -- he might be frightened by what he sees if he looks in them.
Submitted by Pontificator at 3/29/2004 7:52:34 AM

As always, a wonderful fisk of Griswold's letter. The scary thing is that Griswold apparently believes his nonsense.

Folks might find of interest this article I wrote on The Gnostic god of the Griswoldian Self.
Submitted by Gayle at 3/29/2004 8:59:07 AM

One of last week's readings from My Utmost for His Highest was particularly resonate for me. So much so that I made of copy of it and put it on one of the walls in my office so that I can look up and read it. It is entitled "Am I Carnally Minded?"

"Is there a truth in the Bible tht instantly awakens a spirit of malice or resentment in you? If so, that is proof that you are still carnal. If the process of sanctification is continuing in your life, there will be no trace of that kind of spirit remaining.

If the Spirit of God detects anything in you that is wrong, He doesn't as you to make it right, He only asks you to accept the light of truth, and then He will make it right. A child of the light will confess sin instantly and stand completely open before God. But a child of the darkness will say, 'Oh, I can explain that.' When the light shines and the Spirit brings conviction of sin, be a child of the light. Confess your wrongdoing, and God will deal with it. If, however, you try to vindicate yourself, you prove yourself to be a child of the darkness."

In light of the above, how can there be any other conclusion that Griswold is a child of the darkness. And now on a personal note, that cuts to the core of my profound feelings of abandonment and betrayal.

I long to be a child of the light. I prayer that I will be open to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and that I will stand still, accepting the discomfort, allowing the light of truth to shine, confessing my sin so that God can make it right. But in this age, this towering age of Babel, I must have a reliable guide to what is the light of Truth. To be sure Jesus, is that light of Truth and the Holy Spirit will lead us in all truth and understanding, transforming us and sanctifying us into the likeness and image of our Lord Jesus Christ. But I need to have a yardstick with which I can measure the promptings of the Spirit to make sure it is the Holy Spirit and not my own desires.

The only reliable guide I know of is the Holy Scriptures. And when the leaders of my church, particularly the one that has been appointed to be the head shepherd dismiss and disregard that very guide, it imperils anyone seeking after the light of truth. And that is what saddens me, it is the number of well-meaning lemmings that Griswold and Vicki Gene will lead astray, those who will be led from the light into the darkness, only they will be so deceived that it looks just the opposite. My heart breaks when I think of the men and women who have same gender preferences who might have been released from the bondage of wrong desires.

I would like to recommend Oswald Chambers' book. I turned to it as a devotional after I had to jettison Forward Day by Day. He is tough reading at times, but worth the effort.

Submitted by Robert at 3/29/2004 9:07:49 AM

"Never would our church wish to impose patterns that may be appropriate within the life of the Episcopal Church on other provinces of the Anglican Communion."

He apparently has absolutely no problem foisting these patterns of apostasy upon the faithful in the Episcopal Church.
Submitted by Bret at 3/29/2004 9:24:54 AM

Chris,

As always, you're take on the latest Griz-speak is right on the money. Geeze, Grizzy throws out buzzwords such as "context", "reconciliation", "process of discernment" like a scatter gun - no aim, just keep spewing out shot and maybe hit something. Everytime he speaks or writes something, Grizzy digs himself deeper. Somebody has got to take away those mushrooms he and 815 keep munching on, it makes them see rainbows melting down the wall.

Good and godly Anglicans/Episcopalians deserver far better than Grizzy. I feel for these good people.
Submitted by MJD_NV at 3/29/2004 10:20:13 AM

Honestly folks, a little Christian charity here. I mean, how can you possibly require Mr. Griswold to follow what the Bible tells him to do in these various situations...

"Rather than respond to the questionnaire ..."

After all, he can't even follow what Eames Commission asked him to do.



Submitted by Geoff at 3/29/2004 10:28:15 AM

"Are we not being invited in a more profound way to make room for one another's realities . . . "

Ah. Reality is subjective. That explains everything. It's a lot less messy than trying to figure out what reality is.
Submitted by Russ+ at 3/29/2004 10:34:04 AM



Grizwold "Do we not all possess, woven into the fabric of our lives in virtue of our baptism into Christ’s risen body, dimensions of the truth as in Jesus, who is himself the truth?"

Yes Frank, the human body is a wonderful creation of God with many parts that though they may have different functions they still work in a magnificent coordination in the support of eachother and for the function as whole. St. Paul invisioned this analagy quite correctly. However, what you propose is quite the opposite. In this application to you vision, one part of the body is working against the rest and to the body's destruction as a whole. This is called, at best, a diseased organ or at worst, cancer! I choose to use the term cancer. Or perhaps you prefer psychological terms... OK! Your many dimensions of truth in a single body correlate more to schizophrenia than a healthy mental state.

I know that you truly believe this stuff and think that you have uncoverd a new and innovative way of thinking but the truth is that what you really preach is chaos. No institution can withstand this type of logic or anti-logic for long and unfortunately, it will fall. What you want is a vocabluary without the word "no" and you consequently confuse compassion with permission. I know that you earnestly believe what you say but let's face it, your beginning proposition of pluraform truths has encouraged and lead to the current situation and will lead to worse in the future; You are in fact, ECUSA's grim reaper!
Submitted by dl at 3/29/2004 11:15:26 AM

"It is important to realize here that in many areas of our church, particularly urban areas, homosexuality is a very ordinary reality."
I think what he means is that the ECUSA has become, and is becoming, the church of record for the blue states. In other words, Frank's Episcoapl church is an "ordinary reality" in parts of Manhattan, some of the Upper Mid-West and on the Left Coast. Those of us outside these quarters are "elites" who don't get what the "ordinary" salt of the earth, lunchpail toting folks in the Village, or Loring Park or Berkeley are up against.

Submitted by Ian at 3/29/2004 11:19:35 AM

Chris,

The Anglicans lost this battle five hundred years ago. Let me just adjust Frank's passage once more in analogy with your adjustments...

"In the gospel Jesus speaks about knowing a tree by the fruit it bears. In congregations where persons known to be divorced and remarried became a part of congregational life, it became obvious that they possessed the fruit of the Spirit: generosity, kindness, and many of the other characteristics that we associate with Christian virtue..."

Why are Christ Jesus's words in Mark 10:2-12 ignored among the Anglicans and Episcopalians but St. Paul's pronouncements regarding homosexuals are considered canon? Are you Paul's or Christ's? Have a look at 1 Corinthians, Chapter 3. St. Paul "builds up" from Christ, but don't forget the cornerstone...

Hey, you brought up "adultery"...
Submitted by Chris Hathaway at 3/29/2004 11:22:29 AM

Maybe we should call Frank's way of thinking Quantum Theology. A thing may be true or not depending on the perspective of the observer.

Actually, I think his blatherings may prove very useful for non-Western Anglicans. Since they know the truth of what Frank is SUPPOSED to be saying they can begin to recognize how our enlightened idiots use words to hide meanings. Frank is rather like an Anglican Rosetta Stone, helping them decipher modern theo-psych-obabble.
Submitted by kc at 3/29/2004 11:30:43 AM

I am so out of it that I didn't realize we were participating in a "35 year process of discernment about the question of homosexuality in the life of the Church"
Submitted by Chris at 3/29/2004 11:55:49 AM

Does anyone have a link to this questionairre that Griswold didn't want to answer? Could shed some light on the Commission's attitude...
Submitted by Susan at 3/29/2004 12:03:25 PM

"Rather than respond to the questionnaire I thought it would be more helpful were I to send to you to share with members of the Commission a description of some of the workings of the Episcopal Church, pertinent to your deliberations, ..."

Am I the only one who thinks that the members of the commission sighed and said, "Dammit Frank, why can't you just answer the damn questionnaire?"
Submitted by Katherine at 3/29/2004 12:30:18 PM

Right on, Susan. This refusal to even answer the questionnaire, plus the pontificating blather he sends instead, is a finger in the Commission's eye.
Submitted by William Tighe at 3/29/2004 12:47:29 PM

Ian,

You're being a bit unfair to Anglicans. Alone among Protestant Churches, the Church of England (in its 1604 canons) rejected the possibility of divorce followed by remarriage: there were annulments (which woulld allow "re"marriage since it declared the previous marriage null) or "separation from bed and board" which did not allow either one of the parties to it to remarry. All other Protestant Churches (Lutheran, Reformed or "Radical") allowed divorce followed by remarriage at least in some circumstances. Cranmer and most of the English Protestant leaders accepted the common Protestant case for divorce-and-remarriage and his proposed Reform of Canon Law of 1553 (which was rejected by Parliament) would have allowed it. On occasion from 1670 onwards Parliament would pass a special act granting a divorce to a particular couple and allowing them to remarry, but divorce as we understand it today first became possible in England in 1857. Henry VIII's desired "divorce" was in relaity an annulment (in fact, Archbishop Cranmer annulled 4 of Henry's marriages: that to Catherine of Aragon (1533), to Anne Boleyn (1536), to Anne of Cleves (1540) and to Catherine Howard (1542) -- Henry VIII abominated "divorce" to his dying day. Despite the existence in the Church of England of Protestant Evangelicals accepting the general Protestant consensus on the matter (on which, see *Divorce: the Problem with the Evangelical Consensus* by William Heth and Gordon Wenham), down to the 1960s the Church of England had arguably the severest stance against remarriage in church following a divorce of any church in Christendom
Submitted by Ken at 3/29/2004 1:43:21 PM

How much room would Frank make for the realities of, say, a Ku Klux Klansman? A Wiccan? A Satanist? A peyote-eater?

Chris, I admire you. This letter (starting with the fact that he wrote it instead of answering the questionaire) was too much for me to read, even with your really nice fisking to break it up.

I need a shower...
Submitted by Tim at 3/29/2004 1:45:29 PM

El Griz is unable even to admit that the 35 year dialogue is over now, game, set, and match. At least when he ran an end around on his opponents, Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai was honest enough to say that there was no reason for any furthyer discussion.
Submitted by MJD_NV at 3/29/2004 2:13:54 PM

You know, it just struck me...

In spite of being an active member for 32 1/2 of the past 35 years, across 4 dioceses (with my father's ministry giving me insider knowledge in a 5th) serving as everything from acolyte to Sunday school teacher, vestryman to diocesan delegate, and I HAVE NEVER BEEN A PART OF THIS DIALOGUE that Frankie keeps mentioning. Ever. I've never even heard of it, to tell you the truth. It's not like I haven't been around, especially in my 15 years of adulthood in this church. I wonder how many other very active church members have been kept out of the loop on this supposed "dialogue" too. It does make one wonder - was it personal? ;-)
Tangs da make ya go "HMMMMMMmmmmmm..."
Submitted by Ian at 3/29/2004 2:18:13 PM

wrt William Tighe...

OK, so the Anglicans lost this battle one hundred and fifty years ago, with a 350 year old "process of discernment" preceding it.
Submitted by MC from CA at 3/29/2004 2:28:31 PM

Ken,

For an answer to the question, "how much room would Frank make for the realities of a Wiccan?" please see



MC
Submitted by MC from CA at 3/29/2004 2:30:14 PM

Hmm, the link disappeared. Let me try again:

http://www.ecr.anglican.org/bell/npagan.html
Submitted by MC from CA at 3/29/2004 2:30:55 PM

Gack, that was not the one I meant. Here's the right one:

http://www.prayerbook.ca/cann/kanuga/kanu0037.htm
Submitted by Ken at 3/29/2004 2:50:59 PM

Yeah, MC, I've seen Mr. Penn's article before. Scarey stuff. The devil was definitely a delegate to GC2000.

Dr. Tighe, didn't you mean that until the 60s, the CofE had the severest stance against remarriage in church following a divorce of any protestant church in Christendom? I know the Orthodox do recognize divorce and permit remarriage but I don't know when they started doing that. The Catholic Church doesn't recognize divorce until this day.
Submitted by Baillie at 3/29/2004 4:05:12 PM

And I wish Frank would stop using the term “Communion” so much: in his 'context' it begins to sound like blasphemy...
Submitted by William Tighe at 3/29/2004 4:06:32 PM

Ken,

Maybe it would have been better to have said "of any Protestant Church in Christendom", but I wrote what I wrote because the Church of England, unlike the Catholic Church, had no formal process for annulling marriages, either. There was (and still is) something in English law called "civil annulment" in which, for certain specified reasons (which normally have to be backed up by detailed evidence) a judge can annull a marriage. Lacking any annulment process, one can view the C of E as having been, in theory at least, even more severe than the Catholic Church (there were impassioned Anglican denunciations of the papal annulment of the marriage between Consuelo Vanderbilt and the Duke of Marlborough ca. 1890, as "undermining the sanctity of marriage", for instance). Of course, in the Catholic Church down to the 1960s annullments were pretty rare, and even today a hugely disproportionate amount of Catholic church annulments come from the USA, Canada and one or two other countries (not including Western Europe)
Submitted by William Tighe at 3/29/2004 4:15:26 PM

Perhaps some of the Orthodox readers can provide historical information about the permmission of (re)marriage after divorce in the Orthodox Church. The limitation on the number of times that a person can be married in the Orthodox Church was formulated as a rule in 920, in response to the irregular fourth marriage of Emperor Leo VI (d. 912), but I am not aware of when marriage after (civil) divorce became accepted among the Orthodox.
Submitted by MC from CA at 3/29/2004 4:52:28 PM

This article: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ332.HTM by a Roman Catholic writer, dates the practice to the 6th century. Since the author is plainly hostile to Orthodoxy I take it with a few grains of salt.

However everything I have read implied that the practice was ancient, it is certainly not an innovation of the last century or so.

MC
Submitted by Patrick at 3/29/2004 5:01:4